John Lewis

[sybilshade]

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Another person really disappointed with this, I’m not a massive JL customer but often shopped at Waitrose.

I don’t mind online shopping for clothes but have heard that’s returns often end up going to landfill as it’s cheaper than reprocessing them, does anyone know if that’s true?

Excellent post @stealthsquirrelnutkin.

SirVixofVixHal
just sent online message to Bravissimo will update you/

*@justhadathought "discreetly handled"?
That's fine for you, you don't mind. But YOU don't get to speak for me on this, nor do you get to give up other women's hard fought rights, just because you don't mind changing with predatory men around8

You are barking up the wrong tree. I'm with you only women only spaces.

The reason i know their approach is because I asked them about it quite some time ago. They have been actively permitting long standing customers who spend a lot of money in their store ( on women's clothing) to use the women's changing facilities.

I have explained how it works at the Liverpool branch - and it seems quite discreet ( active separation of space). I'm always in JL, and as yet have not come across a man in the changing rooms. I wouldn't be happy about it if i did, though.

bravissimo response: notgreatfortheir staffnbut
We do not fit men and men are not able to go into our fitting rooms, our fitting rooms are women only and of course all of our staff in store are women. If a man presents as a woman, a trans person, we would fit them and would handle this a sensitively as possible for everyone in store. In most of our shops we have two fitting areas and so, where possible, we would fit in a separate area to make sure everyone is comfortable and we can support everyone in the shop.

I wonder what the actual lingerie manufacturers think about this. I save up and spend £300+ on matching bras and knickers (all the same brand) approximately once a year at JL. The brand has a website so I'll be using that from now on. Not everyone will use online shopping so surely this policy will have a knock on effect throughout the industry.

asked how staff are protected....

asked -Thanks, this does feel like a step in the right direction. Though I can imagine that there will be concern raised for your female staff, if a male person reqeusts a fitting. How are your staff protected?
answered asked for my email for a manager to contact me!

@justhadathought "discreetly handled"?
That's fine for you, you don't mind. But YOU don't get to speak for me on this, nor do you get to give up other women's hard fought rights, just because you don't mind changing with predatory men around

I've not come across you before on these boards, but if you had come across my posts, then you wouldn't be reacting in such an over-wrought way.

Personally, think cancelling accounts and chopping up cards is a bit of an over-reaction. But then maybe that is because I love john Lewis as much as many here - having spent about 30 years doing most of my shopping there, and can't imagine doing that myself.

I think if this ever does become a more prevalent issue in the JL changing rooms, then there would be pressure on them to act to change it. But personally never come across this situation myself - even though it has been going on for many years already in their stores.

I agree it is the principle, though - and the advent of self Id would make these occurrences far more likely.

Brava, Bravissimo!

Recognise reality and treat all customers with respect.

Just one question: how would you treat a female staff member who did not feel comfortable carrying out a bra fitting for a male customer?

John Lewis returns policy

www.johnlewis.com/customer-services/returns/our-refund-policy

Products that cannot be returned for hygiene reasons:
…..
Swimwear
Lingerie, briefs and stick-on bras
….

M&S, on the other hand, do not allow swimwear to be returned, but are happy to accept unwanted lingerie back:

www.marksandspencer.com/c/help/returns-and-refunds/is-there-anything-that-cant-be-returned#cantreturn

If true, and you have no reason to lie, this will be considered transphobic and no longer be allowed. You cant "other" them.
Also I expect a pile on or the jl staff to now be "educated"

Yes, it is true, and I have no reason to lie. It seems many people have only just realised this has been their active practice for many years, even if not written fully into policy.

The Liverpool branch moved into its brand new home ten years ago - and it is therefore very modern. Not sure this separation of cubicles would have been possible in the old store. It wouldn't.

bravissimo response: notgreatfortheir staffnbut
We do not fit men and men are not able to go into our fitting rooms, our fitting rooms are women only and of course all of our staff in store are women. If a man presents as a woman, a trans person, we would fit them and would handle this a sensitively as possible for everyone in store. In most of our shops we have two fitting areas and so, where possible, we would fit in a separate area to make sure everyone is comfortable and we can support everyone in the shop.

It's a better response than Mark's Suspenders or JL.As long as staff are not coerced into things they are uncomfortable with I think this is a reasonable solution. As long as when it wasn't possible to use second space they wouldn't prioritise the male person's feelings.

jelly slice think they should say, we would ask another member of staff, however if no staff were willing we would have to respect their feelings.

in other words "he can fuck right off"

Maybe that's to hopeful!!

Will update everyone.

On another point I do appreciate that it is individuals choice to continue to shop (via on-line) at stores, but a mass boycott by women and hitting them where it hurts most might get the publicity and impact that is needed?
Also, we could target one store, then the others can be left wondering who will be targeted next. If it is sustained long enough to do some damage and get publicity then we can target another? It could potentially hurt their long-term planning, etc.
Personally, I see it as our only card to play.

Ereshkigal As long as when it wasn't possible to use second space they wouldn't prioritise the male person's feelings.

Thanks will use this in the response.

For ordering online clothes without plastic packaging, like OhHolyJesus I recommend Rapanui. They just do basics like t-shirts etc. but I have to say their t-shirts are very flattering and don't make me look like a sack of potatoes!

I also recommend Seasalt (don't do underwear unfortunately). They package their clothes in thick paper bags or cardboard boxes.

Both companies have some organic cotton clothing and Seasalt's has the Soil Association stamp.

Need a definition for "transwomen"
anyone who is an actual transwomen should not be discriminated against. This is about distinguishing transwomen, or those who would be "undergoing transistion" (presumably would have silicone implants) to be treated sensitively, think this would be difficult but not undoable.

Interested in responses.

The trans juggernaut is well in motion, and it is going to be a longer term project to halt it, and turn it around.

Rather than depriving yourself of shopping in your favourite stores, or buying your favourite products ( valid choice, of course, if you are happy with having few, if any, shopping options left) why not consider not voting for political parties at the up-coming general election that are actively in favour of Self ID? That currently means all of them......

The battles here are going to be fought and won at the deep end of politics and law, and until then high street stores and other organisations and facilities are just going to follow suit. They are following, not leading.

Fuck sake

Apologies if I have missed it upthread, but the email address can be hard to find, it took me a while but I have used the below. It works as I received an automated response to say it will be looked into

[email protected]

FFS Sorry there should be underscores between the words but it keeps posting incorrectly

Head
Underscore
Of
Underscore
Customer
Underscore
Service

@johnlewis.co.uk

I don’t think the Bravissimo statement is any better to be honest. I think they all recognise the enormous problem but don’t have the ovaries to stand up for women.

Thanks @WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles!

😂 at your username 🙌🏻

Yes, but it's not quite so blithely dismissive of women's concerns, feelings and rights. It's a considered answer, while M&S and JL's is some Stonewall inspired copy and paste bollocks.

About to buy a new dishwasher from JL. That will not be happening now. Pleased by Bravissimo's response as I love them. They are clearly woman focused but still having to tread the line to appease the creepy men that want to be in women's underwear shops.

I cannot believe that we are here. Every day I wake up and am outraged once again. Men really, really fucking hate us don't they?

I don’t think the Bravissimo statement is any better to be honest. I think they all recognise the enormous problem but don’t have the ovaries to stand up for women

As I said above, these shops are simply following, not leading. Politics and law is where the battles are going to be fought and won. This is where you should direct most of your attention. don't vote for parties that support Gender Self ID. That is all of them. The Lib dems, perhaps, being the worst.