Help me understand...”Modest Fashion”

[OhDear2200]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-50067975

There is something that bugs me about this and I need the MN feminists to help me out (be gentle it’s my first post in this area though a regular reader).

Sooo what is it that bugs me?

Why do we need commentary on women (yep no mention of men) and what we wear? Or am I over reacting is it just a conversation about fashion?

But if a man wore baggy trousers it’s not called modest is it??! It’s called wearing baggy trousers. Why is a woman modest or not modest.

Help me either get a grip or understand this better???

Upfield I know

Plan I was talking specifically about the 'kinderwhore' style which WAS born from the feminist Riot Grrrl movement.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderwhore
Not my definition of feminism, an explanation of the history of the style of dress and where it came from. I also said I have no interest in defending it, but you've chosen not to quote that bit. I also stand by my statement that the difference between kinderwhore fashion and modest fashion is that one critically engages with patriarchy (whether it fails or not is another matter) whereas modest fashion embraces oppression.

repeating my argument back to me as though it was her own when I said modest clothing doesn't protect anyone from rape.

I expanded on your argument if you’d like to read it again. You were taking the view that modest clothing perpetuates the myth that women dressing modestly protects them from men’s sexual violence/uncontrollable urges. My argument was that no, it does not perpetuate the myth because no one believes in that myth anymore. For a myth to be perpetuated, it must be believed. I mentioned the what were you wearing exhibit that was the final nail in the coffin of the myth.

You think the misogynist pro oppression of women side and the Feminist opposition to oppressing women deserve equal time on the Feminist board? Criminy!

Well said, Creepster

17 pages! Wow kinda assumed this would die a death. Glad it’s got people talking.

It certainly did that, this thread really escalated lol.

Plan So now that I've cleared that up , can I ask you a question to follow up? Do you think modest fashion makes an attempt to criticise patriarchy, or does it go along with it by telling women they are responsible for male behaviour towards them?

You were taking the view that modest clothing perpetuates the myth that women dressing modestly protects them from men’s sexual violence/uncontrollable urges. WHHHHHHAAAAAAAAATTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Plan Ok, I've found it, here's what I said:
Yes, men also sexually attack women who are dressed 'modestly' (believe it or not, many of us here know that too well as it has happened to us ourselves), which shows that the whole idea of 'modest' dressing doesn't actually afford any protection from violent men at all, and in fact only reinforces the false virgin/whore narrative.
Please, for the love of God, HOW did you arrive at
You were taking the view that modest clothing perpetuates the myth that women dressing modestly protects them from men’s sexual violence/uncontrollable urges.
When I was arguing the EXACT OPPOSITE, and then you presented my argument as yours. I don't mean to be rude if English is your second language, but I mean C'MON.

Do you think modest fashion makes an attempt to criticise patriarchy, or does it go along with it by telling women they are responsible for male behaviour towards them?

No and no.
No, Not every woman picks her clothes to make a political statement so I do not agree that for fashion to be feminist it must attempt to criticise patriarchy. It need only be desired by women and be oriented to the female gaze instead of male gaze.
No, it does not go along with telling women they are responsible for the behaviour of men because that myth is dead and gone.

Via
“and in fact only reinforces the false virgin/whore narrative”

Is not reinforce a synonym for perpetuate? Is not the virgin/whore narrative reference to women men put on a pedestal (the virgin) and the ones men can rape with impunity (the whores). I was also clear that you were associating modest with virgin in your critique, not whores.

WE OBJECT TO THE BRANDING AS “MODEST” AND THE PROMOTION OF “MODESTY” AS A DESIRABLE ATTRIBUTE FOR WOMEN

I'm pretty sure almost everyone on this thread has said they don't like the name 'modest' in terms of fashion. None of us are saying women should be forced to wear this clothing, and most agree that the word modest isn't good because it implies the opposite is immodest, so, what's the problem? You say you don't have a problem with women wearing this style of dress, but your posts repeatedly come across as if you do. Absolutely nobody here is on the 'misogynist pro oppression side of the argument.' People are just pointing out that this clothing exists, it's called modest fashion (none of us here named it that), and it exists because Muslim and other religious women need it in order to conform to their religions, plus some women actually like wearing this type of clothing because they feel comfortable in it.

Are you wanting to 'liberate' all Muslim women from Islam or something?

Enough of all of the accusations of handmaidenry and misogyny, it's ridiculous!

@30to50FeralHogs erm no I love wearing my hijab as did many at my top 2 uni. Isn't it funny how many think a piece of cloth on your head wipes away your brain cells . As a Muslim, the only "oppresive" treatment I've experienced in terms of what I wear are people like you, do you not see how ironic this is?

Nuns who I used to serve in a shop on Oxford street, Orthodox Jewish women who I see in Islington with wigs, Elderly white women with headscarves whom I used to see aplenty growing up in the 1980's.....are all these people "oppressed" too? Or are you just vexed that they are following a style other than one in a fashion magazine? 🙄

No, it does not go along with telling women they are responsible for the behaviour of men because that myth is dead and gone.

Completely untrue. Here's a demonstration of its use that happened in a rape trial:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46207304

"A series of protests over sexual consent have been taking place in Ireland, a week after a man was acquitted of raping a 17-year-old.

In the trial, the defence lawyer told the jury: "You have to look at the way she was dressed. She was wearing a thong with a lace front.""

The defence barrister held up the victim's underwear for the jury to judge.

No, Not every woman picks her clothes to make a political statement so I do not agree that for fashion to be feminist it must attempt to criticise patriarchy. I actually agree with that, but choices aren't made in a vaccuum, we live with the history and reality of female oppression, and deliberately choosing clothes for the sake of 'modesty' is taking the position that women are responsible for male sexual violence.

No, it does not go along with telling women they are responsible for the behaviour of men because that myth is dead and gone.
But...it's modest clothing, the clue is in the name, that's exactly what it does.

choices aren't made in a vaccuum, we live with the history and reality of female oppression, and deliberately choosing clothes for the sake of 'modesty' is taking the position that women are responsible for male sexual violence.

So what do you propose we all do? What clothes shall we wear to meet your approval? What clothes should Muslim and orthodox Jewish women wear so they don't get accused of being handmaidens of the patriarchy?

No one is saying women should wear one thing or another or that women are big slags just because they have a short skirt on. In my religion we have the concept of modesty (that’s what we call it). Some women dress like that all the time but most just dress like that for religious occasions/life cycle events, etc. The rest of the time we dress in office wear/fitness gear/jammies/party clothes/whatever

I don’t dress like a religious woman but I have no problem with those who do. And for the most part they have no issues with me (nor should they). So tolerance and mutual respect is the way forward imo

The pro-modesty brigade on this thread need to think about how men literally police women's clothing in places like Iran, employing a morality police force to enforce the hijab:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/06/07/iran-introduces-2000-new-morality-police-units-response-womens/

Women began taking to the streets last year, silently waving their headscarves on the ends of sticks. In response, they suffered a backlash from the authorities, facing violent assault, arrest and torture, and some were jailed after what human rights groups called unfair trials.

Tortured and jailed for refusing to dress the way men want them.

The apolitical blandness about this is really galling.

Nuns who I used to serve in a shop on Oxford street, Orthodox Jewish women who I see in Islington with wigs, Elderly white women with headscarves whom I used to see aplenty growing up in the 1980's.....are all these people "oppressed" too?
Yes, all women are. I'm pretty sure most women on this thread give a feminist critique to Western culture and styles of dress too.

No one is saying women should wear one thing or another

Men are. Men are saying exactly that.

@dreichdrizzle - is your intolerance of women who wish to wear the hijab any better? Women should wear what they like and not be judged. So stop judging us.

@Dreichdrizzle - which men? Sounds more like women on this thread who have an issue with women wearing hijabs/ orthodox jewish clothing

Did you read my link about Iran zsazsajuju? It's literally a few posts up.

Men are torturing and jailing women who refuse to dress the way they want them to.

"is your intolerance of women who wish to wear the hijab any better?"

Am I better than men who torture and jail women who don't dress the way they want them to? What do you think?

Dreich drizzle....an a my little pony t shirt was shown at another rape trial. The point is not that people do not judge us for what we wear but that no matter what you wear thong or my little pony T-shirt you will be judged and it will be shown at a rape trial. I say again, the myth that dressing a certain way can reduce risk or avoid rape is dead and gone. That is not the same thing as being judged for what you wear. As is plainly evident on this thread.

So what do you propose we all do? What clothes shall we wear to meet your approval? What clothes should Muslim and orthodox Jewish women wear so they don't get accused of being handmaidens of the patriarchy?
Meet my approval?! Where have I said other women's clothing has to meet my approval?! My only concern is that women shouldn't have to dress to meet male approval. This is a critique of male oppression, not women.
Women should wear what they like and not be judged. So stop judging us.
Correct me if you feel I'm mistaken, but it's the male enforced oppressive ideology of 'modesty' that's being judged, not women.