Help me understand...”Modest Fashion”

[OhDear2200]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-50067975

There is something that bugs me about this and I need the MN feminists to help me out (be gentle it’s my first post in this area though a regular reader).

Sooo what is it that bugs me?

Why do we need commentary on women (yep no mention of men) and what we wear? Or am I over reacting is it just a conversation about fashion?

But if a man wore baggy trousers it’s not called modest is it??! It’s called wearing baggy trousers. Why is a woman modest or not modest.

Help me either get a grip or understand this better???

I find the reaction to the word modest in a GC forum... interesting. Mainly because it seems to be precisely in line with the sex positive view which says that sexualisation of the feminine sex is just great, choice feminism, sex work is great, etc.

Modesty as a virtue in traditional language is rooted in the idea of respect for persons and physical bodies. It's not at heart about how much is covered which has a strong cultural element, it's about presenting people as sexual objects, which can be done within pretty much any clothing convention.

I think the left has really been foolish to give up language that describes the moral/ethical element in how cultural practices dehumanise or pidgenhole people. It leaves them, and I'd say feminism as well, without language that clearly expresses what the problem is.

Given that feminism has historically been keen to point out problems of sexualisation of women in the media and fashion, I think it's a little odd that people are hesitant or embarrassed or ? to point out that a) fashion is constantly trying to push sexualisation of women's clothing and this affects our perceptions and sense of ourselves as persons b)that this affects women's clothing in a way that it doesn't affect mens c) that it affects how men and maybe particularly young men think about women and this is bad.

And finally d) that given all this, women who are aware of all this might be very interested in clothing and fashion that is intended to avoid sexualisation of women, that is to say, is modest.

The label 'modest' is hideous with its implication that women who don't follow this fashion are 'immodest'.

I still don't see what's supposed to be modest about them anyway. Most people wear clothes that cover them up most of the time. It smacks of finding a word that will appeal to a particular market for £££.

And those short, wide leg trouser and baggy dresses look bloody freezing to me. The wind would get right up them.

Too much women's fashion is designed for the male gaze. This pushes back

This. I don't like the word "modest" to be used in this way, it is as much a judgement on how a woman dresses as "tarty" is, though I like the actual clothing.

In winter it means things like long dresses with high necks and long sleeves are actually available, so I can look smart and be warm at the same time. Men aren't expected to wear skimpy and revealing clothing at work so I don't see why I should have to.

I thought "modest" must have started out as a euphemism used by the fashion industry to help women from more conservative cultures filter for clothes on shopping websites. But I wish they'd chosen "sensible" instead, less loaded for those of us who like warm comfy clothes but think everyone has the right to dress as they like!

Yes - I agree it sounds like a search term to help eg Muslim women find clothes that would be suitable. I’m not religious but generally don't wear revealing clothes because I’m old and fat, so would automatically choose clothes that cover me, but not to be ‘modest’, just to be warm and comfortable and not to scare the children.

It is been bugging me ever since DH and I got married and any wedding dress with a damn sleeve was automatically considered "modest" - I wanted sleeves and I am probably the last person people think of when they hear "modest"!

I have noticed it swapping over to main steam fashion as hijabistas etc. have become more well-known. And there are some amazing jewish and muslim labels out there, which I love buying from (and almost always have the neckline altered...) - I am glad they get a little more attention.

I honestly just don't see the need to seperate women's fashion into "modest" and "not modest". And as others have pointed out, men's clothes are hardly ever going to be divided that way.

it seems to be precisely in line with the sex positive view which says that sexualisation of the feminine sex is just great, choice feminism, sex work is great, etc

I certainly don’t think sex work is great etc! What on earth has that to do with this?!

What Talking said (again )

"Modest" fashion is to differentiate from the vast bulk of fashion which is revealing and "sexy" isn't it?
It's tiresome for those of us who don't like exposing skin (or can't for religious reasons) to wade through all the pages or shops of clothes that we would never wear, so the "modest" tag enables filtering that out.
This isn't relevant to me personally, I don't wear fashion clothes.

I find the reaction to the word modest in a GC forum... interesting

This isn’t a GC forum. It’s a feminist chat board

If you mean you find it interesting in those with radical feminist views then you have seriously misunderstood the radical feminist position

Yes, OP, I agree that I have big issues with the word 'modesty' and it's implications.

Another vote for 'sensible' clothes, here.

This film was linked below, out of interest: www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-47859204/the-rise-of-male-modest-islamic-fashion

But I wish they'd chosen "sensible" instead

Yes, definitely. Or "practical".

I mean even women's active outdoor wear has become skimpy and form fitting. I had to buy from the men's range when we were going on a walking holiday as I didn't want a fleece that was tight and shaped in at the waist and tight walking trousers.

Another vote for 'sensible' clothes, here.

I could go along with that if the clothes featured actually were 'sensible'. Trousers that don't come down to my feet and allow the wind to blow up them don't fall into 'sensible' for me.

Floor length skirts are not sensible. Constricting

Actually, I think the concept of “modest clothing” as a thing started with American Christian sects- there are loads of articles and blog posts and advertisements you can find. And it’s all about taking responsibility for men’s behaviour.

@TalkingintheDark sums it perfectly.

Fuck modest, fuck labelling what we wear. Just leave us alone! Aaarrgghhh men don't have to deal with this bullshit. My husband chucks on a shirt and trousers for work 'modest' or jeans and a hoody at weekends 'modest' and that is it, life is so simple. There is no one writing stupid articles like this about his clothes.

I wear suits like that, and loose styles like that every day, I hate tight clothing, I like being comfortable. Yet I think I'm stylish and attractive. So fuck the labels, my modest clothing hasn't held me back from anything in life. I will wear whatever i want.

“Modest” is problematic because it places the onus on the wearer of the clothing to control the reactions of the viewer

Yep. Sexist bullshit. In the same way male rape victims are never asked what type of underwear they had on, whilst the female victims clothes are shown as an open bloody invite.

I live in outside the UK and I feel it necessary to dress more 'modestly' to avoid harassment here. Some of the outfits I see women wearing back home would lead to all sorts of catcalling and worse. I don't see the idea of 'modesty' as empowering in the slightest, it's born from fear of male sexual violence. Nothing wrong with the clothes themselves, but the term 'modest' doesn't show an emphasis on comfort but compliance with the idea that men simply can't help themselves, and by implication if you wear 'immodest' clothes then you are asking for it. Dressing for comfort would include skimpy clothing in the height of summer. I sadly think it's a side-effect of the fear of criticising different cultures for their sexism out of a drive to be inclusive, which makes terms such as 'modesty' become normalised. The kind of harassment I've experienced out on the street in mainly Middle-Eastern or African neighbourhoods has been notably worse in my experience (no agenda in stating this, an honest observation). I also notice that often, there are hardly any women present on the streets in these neighbourhoods, men dominating all the street cafes turning around to gawp as you walk past, very intimidating (even when I have been dressed 'modestly', and looking quite average). Modest fashion seems to accept that this is just the way things are, but if you are a good and modest girl then you won't get any trouble, which is of course a lie.

I think modest dressing means how the dress wears you.
If two people who differ in shape wore the same size dress, on one it was not clinging, while the other it was skin tight .
Both would show the same amount of skin, but appearances would differ.

It’s directly religious. Those women whose religions demand “modest dress” want to be able to find nice modern stuff that fits the bill. I think it’s great that fashion is catering from them. The problem is not with the label or fashion but the originating religions and women brought up in those religions should be supported not belittled.

But if it is about how tight fitting clothes are mummy2017 why are so many of the models featured wearing tight fitting tops and arse hugging trousers?

Why does it have to be labelled at all? Why not just have skirt lengths in inches/cm/whatever as the norm, the way men's trousers are labelled by inside leg measurement? So if you want a short or a midi or a long skirt you search by size and length. If you want a short-sleeved top you search for 'short sleeves' and if you want a long-sleeved top you search for 'long sleeves'. Why the fucking value judgements, always, for women and their clothes? Why can't we just have standardised factual descriptions and measurements?

@TalkingintheDark - thank you, you’ve confirmed that my anger is not displaced.

If you want a short-sleeved top you search for 'short sleeves' and if you want a long-sleeved top you search for 'long sleeves'

Many long sleeved top are very low cut, have random holes exposing the back and arms or are crop top/belly tops.
I mostly buy from Muslim online fashion shops, I like that I can search 'long sleeved tops' and not have to trawl through 200 results just to find 1 or 2 things suitable.

I agree the word 'modest' is problematic, but I would like a search term that brings up items that are not skin revealing.

@UpfieldHatesWomen

That is what worries me, that the emphasis is on the woman to ‘prevent’ the uncontrollable urges of men. I think there is a cultural issue, but I don’t think it’s exclusively cultural, just look at some of the resent comments made by our ‘lovely’ MPs who made it clear that a woman is to blame for sexual assault.

I like the clothes. It's refreshing to see stylish, fashionable clothing that's also warm and comfy looking and achievable and appealing to women of all ages.

But I also object to the term 'modest' because it is a value judgement. Another vote for 'practical' or 'sensible'.