Help me understand...”Modest Fashion”

[OhDear2200]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-50067975

There is something that bugs me about this and I need the MN feminists to help me out (be gentle it’s my first post in this area though a regular reader).

Sooo what is it that bugs me?

Why do we need commentary on women (yep no mention of men) and what we wear? Or am I over reacting is it just a conversation about fashion?

But if a man wore baggy trousers it’s not called modest is it??! It’s called wearing baggy trousers. Why is a woman modest or not modest.

Help me either get a grip or understand this better???

Feminism 101, PlanDeRaccordement, an please do not call me a creep.
It is rude and offensive and a violation of the special FWR talk guidelines.

A lot of clothes now seem to be modest. I have never been a flesh barer but I have large breasts and all the high necks make me look like I have a mammoth chest.

I have thought for a while that shops like M & S have decided that there is a huge market for modest clothing for demographics that culturally dress that way and have decided to concentrate their efforts in that style. And therefore we should all dress like that.

Shops need to offer choice. I need to show my shoulder blades because I look odd with high necks, so lots of clothes are no longer suitable for me.

I don't like the term modesty clothes. I actually find it offensive. Because I don't want to wear an all encompassing maxi dress with long sleeves and high necks does not make me a strumpet.

? I was shortening your name Cr—p so that you would not get a notification which is what I have been told repeatedly is the polite thing to do. After you you are calling me Plan. If you do not like the word, then why did you call yourself that?

What's been incredibly disingenuous is the claim that 'modest' fashion doesn't imply that other fashion is 'immodest', yet the prolific advocate of 'modest' fashion we have on this thread has automatically set up this binary for themselves on a number of occasions. First of all they equated revealing 'clubbing wear' (which people wear to go on the pull, get wasted, take drugs etc ) to the opposite of modest fashion, then they said this: I don’t think it is wise to claim that dressing modest is antifeminist any more than to claim that slut walk outfits are antifeminist. So they clearly do see the opposite of 'modest' clothing as slutty clothing.

“Feminism 101” is a meaningless response. After all, feminism 101 states that feminism is about women choosing and yet you call myself and others misogynist oppressors because we have no objection to some women choosing to dress in clothing currently labelled as “modest”. The clothing in question is actually a fusion of nonWestern and Western styles, cuts and embellishments. I understand the label of “modest” is offensive to some...fine,,that is gone, fini. But it seems you and others still object to women dressing in the style itself. Are you worried western women will “go native”? That is a very colonial attitude to have and not very feminist.

Sl*twalks are definitely anti-woman.

Why can't women imagine themselves out of men's disgusting boxes for us? Why don't they ever notice that men don't have to put up with this kind of nonsense. It literally doesn't exist for them.

Women are human, not modest or sl*ts.

After all, feminism 101 states that feminism is about women choosing

No it doesn't, that's faux feminism 101.

Feminism 101 says that women's choices are limited or non-existent because men oppress us systematically through patriarchy, using violence and illegitimate control of resources.

Upfield, no I don’t think there is a binary and my comments illustrating a binary were purely in an effort to understand you who think and have said over and over you believe that not only is there is a binary but also that modest=antifeminist but immodest=feminist. I was trying to get more information on your views by reflecting back to you what you had said.
My view is that calling clothes modest does not create a binary.

Are you worried western women will “go native”? That is a very colonial attitude to have and not very feminist.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'go native', but I can tell you that I care about the normalisation of the term 'modest' and the rape apologism inherent in it. Women are not responsible for male sexual violence.

an please do not call me a creep.
It is rude and offensive and a violation of the special FWR talk guidelines

Shame noone told shona that. She's called me creepy over and over again.

And i presume plan was using your name.

“Feminism 101” is a meaningless response. After all, feminism 101 states that feminism is about women choosing and yet you call myself and others misogynist oppressors because we have no objection to some women choosing to dress in clothing currently labelled as “modest”. The clothing in question is actually a fusion of nonWestern and Western styles, cuts and embellishments. I understand the label of “modest” is offensive to some...fine,,that is gone, fini. But it seems you and others still object to women dressing in the style itself. Are you worried western women will “go native”? That is a very colonial attitude to have and not very feminist.

Well said. I never knew I'd get called a misogynistic handmaiden of the patriarchy for explaining the origins of a fashion style on a feminist board but there's a first time for everything

Dreich,
Yes, all that about choices being limited fall under the category of “women choosing”

...and I have nowhere on here said immodest=feminist that is your own projection, you keep doing it and not engaging with the points that are being made.

you keep doing it and not engaging with the points that are being made.

No. She's just not agreeing with you, and you seem to be unable to accept that others are entitled to a different opinion.

We went through this in the eighties. The designers decided to go from mid calf and clean lines to mini skirt and lace in one season. The buyers were tearing their hair out because the style was so limiting and some of their best sellers, women's business suits and separates, were no longer on offer.
Teens bought the frills and minis and adult women did not.
There is a tiny bit more variety on offer these days, but not much.

And i presume plan was using your name.
I was.

Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women.
Feminism 101 has nothing to do with telling women they must choose the style of their oppression.

No. She's just not agreeing with you, and you seem to be unable to accept that others are entitled to a different opinion.
No. I repeat, nowhere on here have I said immodest=feminist, nor have I objected to modest clothing itself, which has been a repeated straw man she keeps dragging out. Stop trying to appeal to my female socialisation to shut me up.

"Yes, all that about choices being limited fall under the category of “women choosing”"

Eh, no it doesn't. It falls under the category of men choosing women's choices e.g. giving us the "choice" between dressing modestly or (in their terms) like a sl*t.

I also noted that women's choices are often non-existent. Women in fundamentalist religions are often fully controlled by men. Again, men making the choices.

You don't understand feminism or what it's for.

17 pages! Wow kinda assumed this would die a death. Glad it’s got people talking.

Sooo what is it that bugs me?
Probably the madonna/whore paradigm on offer in women's fashion is what is bothering you.
It's been bugging me for seventy years.

TalkingintheDark She did the same thing to me, repeating my argument back to me as though it was her own when I said modest clothing doesn't protect anyone from rape.

Upfield,
You did in fact set up that binary in regards to modest=antifeminist and immodest(whore)= feminist with your comments:

Modest' fashion doesn't even attempt to criticise patriarchal hypocrisy, if it did there would be some similar form of satirical or ironic wearing of 'modest' garments involved. There isn't. It's a movement born from sexist, patriarchal, religious ideas about women, embraced by woke, virtue-signalling dipshits.

In any case, at least dressing as a 'whore' was making an attempt to challenge the patriarchal rules set up by men and throw it back in their faces. The term 'modest' positively embraces patriarchy.

But it seems you and others still object to women dressing in the style itself.

Will nobody rid me of this troublesome STRAW MAN?!

NO WE DON’T OBJECT TO WOMEN DRESSING IN THIS STYLE AT ALL

WE OBJECT TO THE BRANDING AS “MODEST” AND THE PROMOTION OF “MODESTY” AS A DESIRABLE ATTRIBUTE FOR WOMEN

That is what is profoundly anti-feminist.

Sacré bleu.