Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Help me understand...”Modest Fashion”

634 replies

OhDear2200 · 13/11/2019 13:54

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-50067975

There is something that bugs me about this and I need the MN feminists to help me out (be gentle it’s my first post in this area though a regular reader).

Sooo what is it that bugs me?

Why do we need commentary on women (yep no mention of men) and what we wear? Or am I over reacting is it just a conversation about fashion?

But if a man wore baggy trousers it’s not called modest is it??! It’s called wearing baggy trousers. Why is a woman modest or not modest.

Help me either get a grip or understand this better???

OP posts:
PlanDeRaccordement · 14/11/2019 23:57

Women in Iran deserve nice clothes too. Stopping all modest fashion production and sales gives them less choice, not more.

Dreichdrizzle · 14/11/2019 23:57

Actually the judgement on this thread comes from people who call some ordinary clothing "modest" because there is a clear implication that other clothing is "immodest".

I've even looked at my tight jeans that I'm wearing tonight and thought that they would be judged "immodest" by the lights of this thread. I have never had a thought like that in my life, either about my clothes or anyone else's. Modesty and immodesty are stupid, retrograde and insultingly sexist judgements of the clothes women wear.

Dreichdrizzle · 15/11/2019 00:00

"Women in Iran deserve nice clothes too. Stopping all modest fashion production and sales gives them less choice, not more."

Wow, I post about how Iranian men are jailing and torturing Iranian women if they refuse to submit to men's clothing choices for them and your response is that Iranian women deserve nice clothes in their prison.

I don't believe you're serious any more.

Creepster · 15/11/2019 00:03

On the Feminist board we try to apply Feminist analysis.
This is difficult when people waste our time with these personal attacks claiming we are intolerant of women.
If you cannot separate the analysis of the effects of social customs and mores from criticism of women who comply with social customs and mores you are well and truly conditioned.

Endofthedays · 15/11/2019 00:04

Isn’t ‘big slag’ slang for a sexually immodest woman?

Someone could say the following: I strive to be a modest person. I consider modest to refer to behaviour in which one has respect for one’s own body and sexuality as well as the body and sexuality of others. I only conduct myself in a sexual manner with a person who I share a mutual consent and respect with. I don’t sexually objectify other people or myself. I wear clothing that is appropriate to the activities I am participating in, so I wear form fitting clothes during cycling but do not sexualise myself by doing so. I am aware that my feelings about clothing are specific to me.

That would be steel manning the concept of modesty, rather than straw manning it.

But as soon as somebody starts referring to a whole look as modest and throwing it around as a shared experience of modesty which can be tagged, they are pretty much saying that women who wear a short skirt are sexually immodest (big slags).

Dreichdrizzle · 15/11/2019 00:04

I googled "My Little Pony t-shirt rape trial" and the only thing that came up with was this: an exhibition of clothes women were wearing when a man raped them:

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/rape-victims-clothes-displayed-brussels-belgium-debunk-victim-blaming-myth-a8152481.html

"As rape and sexual assault victims grapple with life post-trauma, one of the loaded questions that is sometimes asked is, “What were you wearing?”

The unstated but troubling implication is that if the clothes worn were provocative enough, then that may affect the level of sympathy offered.

But, as an exhibit in Belgium proves, the question is useless, and harmful, in determining a motive for rape.

Called, “What were you wearing?” the exhibit at the Centre Communautaire Maritime in Brussels features replicated clothing items similar to those worn by real victims of sexual assault, and attempts to disprove the myth that provocative clothing incites rape.

Replicated from descriptions of clothing worn the night survivors were attacked, the exhibit proves that clothing never justifies or incites rape.

Featuring items such as pyjamas, tracksuits, even a child’s My Little Pony shirt, the exhibit shows clothing as innocent as the victims themselves.

The organisation behind the exhibit, the prevention service of Molenbeek, opened the exhibit to "create a tangible response to one of our most pervasive rape culture myths" because "The belief that clothing or what someone what wearing 'causes' rape is extremely damaging for survivors.""

Weird how you would mention something that completely undermines your argument.

PlanDeRaccordement · 15/11/2019 00:08

You are not either though Dreich because flinging Iran which is a theocratic dictatorship into a conversation about a western democratic fashion trend is a very large and very red herring.

PlanDeRaccordement · 15/11/2019 00:11

You missed “debunk rape myth”
That exhibit was years ago and helped kill the myth.

Your link doesn’t undermine that one bit anymore than me posting a picture of a dodo with an old headline “last Dodo on display at British museum” undermines their extinction.

PlanDeRaccordement · 15/11/2019 00:12

I even mentioned the exhibit pages ago on this thread too,

Endofthedays · 15/11/2019 00:13

I’m pretty sure the myth is still going strong. I still hear it when school age girls are raped locally.

Dreichdrizzle · 15/11/2019 00:16

Where do you think this so-called fashion trend is coming from? Calling some clothing for women "modest" arises out of worldwide fundamentalist religions, all of which sanction male control of women. You can't talk about the veil, which is one of the most obvious forms of "modest' dress that is demanded of women without talking about places like Iran and what men do to women in those places when they refuse to submit. We can also talk about US fundie religions and how women suffer within them. Also big proponents of "modest" dress for women (not men note).

The only fashion at work here is renaming normal clothing that women always choose and wear and have easy access to, as "modest" which drags women who would have nothing to do with it otherwise, into the values of woman-hating patriarchal religion.

But yes, your wish for Iranian women to have nice fashionable clothing choices whilst men oppress them is noted.

UpfieldHatesWomen · 15/11/2019 00:19

You missed “debunk rape myth”
That exhibit was years ago and helped kill the myth.
It was my understanding that dressing modestly is advised (and enforced in some places, either in law or culturally) in Islam to protect a woman from sexual attention. Are you saying that this is not the case?

Dreichdrizzle · 15/11/2019 00:20

"That exhibit was years ago and helped kill the myth.

Your link doesn’t undermine that one bit anymore than me posting a picture of a dodo with an old headline “last Dodo on display at British museum” undermines their extinction."

So why did you bring up an exhibit from that exhibition as an (incorrect) example to support your argument. You brought it into the conversation, not me.

Of course the rape myth that women's clothes are responsible for men raping them still exists. The fact that the idea of "modest" clothing even exits gives lie to that claim.

Dreichdrizzle · 15/11/2019 00:23

I've got a "modest" jumper on and "immodest" jeans according to these misogynistic standards.

What a stupid way to talk about women's clothes. They're comfortable and they fit and they're warm. Those should be the only things that matter.

LemonPrism · 15/11/2019 00:23

It usually means fashion for Muslim women. I like modest fashion, I don't like having my body out much as I have issues, I assure you I am still very fashionable and feminist as it is my choice what I wear

Dreichdrizzle · 15/11/2019 00:25

Why do you call them "modest" LemonPrism? Why not just "clothes I like" or "clothes I feel comfortable in".?

PlanDeRaccordement · 15/11/2019 00:25

No, that is not the only origin of the style of clothing. It crosses many borders, eras and religions.
Some of it I said catholic and orthodox Jewish. Some of it is Hindu and Taoist and bhuddist. Not all religions oppress women.
Even if it were purely Islamic, how does it not help Muslim women to have greater variety and choice in what they wear? Surely a fashion style which is a fusion that reconciles their religion with western styles is a step forward? And creates a society more inclusive for their religion and culture? I see it as a stepping stone to eventual assimilation.

Dreichdrizzle · 15/11/2019 00:26

That exhibition I linked to was in 2018. Very current, because rape myths like "women's clothing causes men to rape them" is still believed by countless people.

Creepster · 15/11/2019 00:27

I assure you I am still very fashionable and feminist as it is my choice what I wear
Unless you make your clothing yourself it isn't your choice what you wear.

Creepster · 15/11/2019 00:29

Not all religions oppress women.
Name one that does not.

Dreichdrizzle · 15/11/2019 00:30

Plan, let me spell this out for you. Women are being tortured and jailed by men in Iran because they refuse to wear the hijab and they protest about it.

Do you think their problem is:

a) lack of nice fasbionable clothing choices that fit in with what the men in charge want?

b) being tortured and jailed by men because Iranian men think they have the right to tell Iranian women what to wear and punish them for it if they don't?

All patriarchal religions oppress women. I thought you claimed to be a feminist. How come you don't know that?

Dreichdrizzle · 15/11/2019 00:32

Fashion - another anti-feminist, anti-woman institution

Endofthedays · 15/11/2019 00:34

I was wondering why we were all not bringing up the global misery maker that is the fashion industry.

UpfieldHatesWomen · 15/11/2019 00:37

Even if it were purely Islamic, how does it not help Muslim women to have greater variety and choice in what they wear?
It helps them to have greater choice in what to wear, so long as what they choose is within the confines of oppressive, sexist ideas about 'modesty' that don't apply to men. If it makes their lives easier though, I am in favour of that. But the concept of modest fashion isn't just about style, there's a sexist value system underlying it which implies women are responsible for male sexual violence. As such, it's not something I feel should be embraced with open arms in the name of inclusivity, there are surely better ways to do that.

Creepster · 15/11/2019 00:40

I think because the subject is the words used to control how we think about that global misery maker.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”