Marks and Spencer have fallen, part III; we’re gonna need a bigger boat

[MrsSnippyPants]

Fresh thread in case part 2 fills up overnight.
I am yet to receive a reply to my third email, have been furiously tweeting, and as am now pursuing the options available to me as a shareholder.
Still crossing fingers for John Lewis!

I haven't spotted a link to this yet, seems that even if Head Office have sent out a memo not all staff have got it, making it even more confusing for everyone concerned. I am not clear if this was a woman who identifies as a man or vice versa but it does sound like the former. Which makes it slightly more odd as it seems most women asking to change in the men's have been told "well, you won't want to, but go ahead".

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/ms-caught-in-transgender-row-after-actress-liz-carrs-friend-refused-entry-to-changing-room-a3756136.html

Ah oops I just realised that's quite old! Ignore me.

I think it's imperative that we all speak to shop floor staff.

We'll have to agree to disagree there.
Shop floor staff have their hands tied. They are expected to follow policy. Without question. They can't agree with you when you speak to them about something that goes against company policy.

Managers and supervisors have the door to HO open to them. They can feed back that this policy is having a negative impact in all sorts of ways.

Managers and supervisors hate dealing with customer complaints face to face. They would much rather you complain to 'Sue on changing rooms' for They can ignore that as it doesn't impact on them.

It makes it so much harder to given children guidance. The old if you see man in ladies or changing rooms tell a grown up, isn't going cut any mustard. If child or women feels uncomfortable being stared
At or listened to there is still a high bar of actual assault or filming before it’s “offensive”. Regardless of how it makes you feel unsafe.

@Elodie2019 I didn't have to contact the press - they contacted me. Some of em didn't even bother contacting me.... just took my pictures and tweets etc. We all know when we do something they will lift it out of our accounts anyway.

So shall I just stop doing stuff now you've told me what's what? Or shall I carry on campaigning on a variety of issues in my own way as I have done for a few years?

I am really pleased to see so many women running with their own ideas about tackling this one small issue and Woman's Place and FairPlay on board is great. Loads of different women talking to the press. Lots of people outside feminism having conversations they weren't before. All just doing our own thing and no one getting annoyed with each other. You'd almost think women would welcome that kind of joint action for a change. Wouldn't you?

I can't be the only person to have used "client dissatisfaction" as a tool to dislodge a policy I was unhappy with in the workplace.

You are not. I've used this in a variety of workplaces to challenge bad policies.

Elodie I don't what your problem is here - nobody's suggesting being abusive to the changing room staff. Asking questions is fine - otherwise how will they be aware women are unhappy?

Thank you @JeanHatchet for your sterling work

My everyday M&S big knickers have the gusset fully sewn. Not sexy enough.

Big knickers every time! I get mine from Tesco, high waist, very comfy! And they come in sealed packs of 4, and no changing rooms! Yay!

I used to wear sexier ones and did wonder why they suddenly appeared unsewn maybe a little less than 15 years ago, and yes, I’m also talking about M&S knickers. Now I know. I don’t buy the easier to sew bs.

I've never worn sexy knickknacks, not even when I was young. Husband loved me anyway! :)

Good work jean

Yeah I do think it is all about women and girls BEING FORCED to accept men wherever men want to be and not being able to say anything b🤐

All this stuff - this & the Samaritans stuff - and even the NSPCC & CBBC stuff - if we join the dots, it's all a massive escalation in male predatory behaviour against women and children.

Yes, it is. The demolition of all safeguarding. And it won't end well. But it'll take a long time for anyone in authority to care because most of the victims will be the genuinely (not the self-identified) marginal and their voices are always ignored until it's too late.

Thank you @Jeanhatchet You are doing amazing work for women. If anyone is interested, here's a link to Jean's blog. A PP mentioned a massive escalation in men's predatory behaviour towards women and girls. I don't think it's a grand conspiracy but it feels like a war on women.

jeanhatchet.blogspot.com/2019/09/ride-for-murdered-women-female-peloton.html

Suggest reporting reviews from males (ie the one who mentions his delight at a lacy panel offering 'a naughty touch', heave) and querying why M&S don't use male models to advertise their lacy lingerie in that case.Well spotted whoever flagged this up; once you start looking their reviews are packed with men getting off on wearing their pants.

I can only jump on MN for a few mins at a time. I really want to email the top bods at M&S and John Lewis (I have credit cards with them both) and any other retailers, but don't have time to scroll back through 100s of posts. Where can I get the right email addresses to use? Huge thanks busy women!

Right, I just emailed the Daily Mail with a link to the last thread, and told them to check out the last few pages. I can just imagine theDM reader outrage if they pick up the story; the boycott could very well go viral.
I'm sorry for their staff. Especially if this brings them down.

I haven’t read all this morning’s updates yet, but just wanted to share the response I have received from NEXT (SPOILER - IT’S NOT GOOD NEWS):

Thank you for your reply in relation to the use of our fitting rooms.

At Next, we do try to be accommodating to as many customers as possible, and we want them to be happy to try on products in our stores.

I just wanted to explain that customers may use any available fitting room that suits their chosen gender identity. And provided the customer is in the changing room for their chosen gender, they can try on garments from any range.

Of course, if you do have any concerns when visiting our stores, please don’t hesitate to speak to a senior Manager who will be happy to assist you in any way they can.

Many thanks again for getting in touch.

littlecabbage

did you expect anything else?

If M&S and others made their women's fitting rooms female only, as well as protecting the privacy of women and girls, it would also, presumably, protect their bra-fitting staff, indeed any staff, from being obliged to service males with a fetish, as seems to be the current policy. They might not be quite so keen to ask for 'help' from the sales assistant in menswear.

Jeez, M&S, can't you see how bad this looks?

Have these been posted here yet?

Not M&S (this guy is in the US) - but clearly WOULD be in M&S if he was in the UK.

How many women's lingerie shops are going to expect women to tolerate this and make space in their changing rooms for male fetishists?

Which lucky woman will be coming across this man in the changing rooms??

@artisanparsnips John Lewis of course! You can do a quick search on their website and select non-wired and choose by size. They have sizes from 28D upwards. This one starts at a 30 band though.

Back to Jean, I thought she did a great job in that video. And although JL hadn't passed the message onto the shop floor yet, at least for now it's looking promising. Let's hope they make it actual policy.

@theflushedzebra that's probably the most disturbing thing I've seen on MN. Ever. Grim.

Here's my email to the Daily Mail.

I have taken some good stuff from many different PPs on the three threads. Thanks to all of you. I also sent them some links and a number of screenshots of the reviews.

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Perverts Reign on line at M&S

Following on from the stories about men accessing the women's lingerie fitting rooms at M&S - I was looking on line. I noticed a very weird pattern on the M&S website.

The website allows for product reviews and for others to identify reviews as 'helpful' or 'unhelpful'. Most reviews get no 'helpful' thumbs up. Or possibly one or two. However, certain reviews, those by men who are buying the knickers for themselves get 20, 30, 40 'helpful' thumbs up signals. What is going on here?

There is a known fetish - autogynephilia. Men who are sexually aroused by wearing women's underwear and clothing. They are aroused thinking of themselves as 'women' and wanting to participate in communities of women and enjoy women chat. The trend towards unisex toilets and self id has brought this into women's everyday lives. We now may meet a bloke in a frock putting on lipstick in the toilets. They don't just want to use our spaces for their biological functions they want to talk to us about girlie stuff (or what they imagine is girlie). This is apparently known as 'sissification' and there are some really disgusting websites devoted to it.

Back to M&S. Men buy their girlie knickers on line and then post reviews about it. They identify themselves as male. It's a 'bat signal' to other men. Those men then pile in and mark their reviews as most helpful so the site will surface them to the top of the page. They want women to know. They want to rub our faces in it.

M&S must know. No one runs a big e-commerce site without spotting a trend like this. All reviews apparently go through some kind of 'moderation' as well. M&S know that kinky men are using their site for sexual thrills. What's the next step? Why not just take gender off their reviews? No, because that wouldn't be helpful to men who want to get sexual thrills trying to buy women's underwear. Instead M&S published a policy of allowing men to enter the women's lingerie fitting rooms on the basis of 'they feel most comfortable there'.

What do they think is going to happen next?

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@JaneR0chester. thank you.

I'm onto email 3 to m&s now. Here is an extract if anyone else wants to adopt the same line of questioning:

Should you feel an uncharacteristic degree of respect towards a customer, please feel free to answer the following questions, or indeed, the questions from my original email. As you are seemingly so concerned with your customers' comfort, I have focused on the need to feel comfortable in your stores.

Scenario A: Amirah is a Muslim woman. She is forbidden by her religious beliefs to share changing spaces with men. Amirah wants to try on some clothing in your store, but in order to feel comfortable that she is not breaking a tenant of her religion, she needs to be certain there are no males present. Which fitting rooms should Amirah use?

Scenario B: Joyce is 79 years old and has limited mobility. She needs to use the disabled-friendly changing cubicle, which does not have a lockable door, only a curtain. Joyce is horrified by the idea that males could be in the changing area with her and is unable to use a cubicle with a door lock as a result of her disability. Where could Joyce go in your store to feel comfortable?

Scenario C: Anna is a victim of sexual assault. As a result of this trauma, Anna feels afraid to undress in the presence of males. Anna wants to try on some jeans. Where should Anna go to feel comfortable while in a state of undress?

Scenario D: Bethany has brought her 13 year old daughter, Eva, for her first bra fitting. Eva is nervous and embarrassed about her changing body. She wants to know there will be only other girls and women around her during her bra fitting. Where can Bethany take her daughter so that she feels comfortable?

Scenario E: Debbie is recovering from a mastectomy. She is still receiving cancer treatment and is emotionally and physically vulnerable. She is uncomfortable with the scars and shape of her chest and needs a supportive, female-only environment. Where should Debbie go to feel comfortable in your store?

Scenario F: Jonathan likes to dress up in women's clothing. It creates feelings of sexual arousal. He likes to try on female underwear and take pictures of himself doing so, in a state of arousal, then return the soiled items to the rack for unsuspecting women to pick up. Jonathan feels very comfortable in the female changing areas. Where would you want your staff to direct Jonathan to change when in your store?

I love the idea of Safe Retailers for Women. SRW. We could even set up a website.

It could be a way for us to support all shops that are putting women first, to find substitutions for things we normally buy in non safe retailers, and a way to encourage more and more shops to remember that women are female and that we have rights too.