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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Do women have the right to say they feel uncomfortable over a name?

553 replies

SarahNade · 09/11/2019 13:54

I hope this is as safe place to ask this. I am on a discussion on another thread, and it seems many think that a woman has no right to ask not to be addressed by a colloquial term, and if she does ask, she is the one being unreasonable for daring to stick her neck out, she is the one overreacting, for merely asking. Yet the male who went politely asked, gets offended that a woman dares utter her discomfort, and gets abusive with her. So why is it the woman who is 'overreacting' by merely asking not to be called something, but the man is not seen as overreacting by taking offence to her request and getting indignant?

Do women have the right to ask politely not be called something, without being told they are 'overreacting'? Or should women accept being called a term they don't like, shut up and put up with it in case she gets the male in trouble?

OP posts:
9toenails · 09/11/2019 16:22

Getting upset by a grocery delivery man calling you 'love' is just silly. A grocery delivery man getting upset by someone objecting to such address is silly too (because a giggle and 'Oh, sorry, dear!' would be much more appropriate a response.)

A person objecting to being called 'love' by a grocery delivery man is a silly person (is that you, OP?) . But do not worry about that. You have given some of us a bit of a laugh, and that is something precious in these drear times. Making us laugh = spreading happiness, of a sort. Thank you.

Babdoc · 09/11/2019 16:34

This is a fascinating discussion and a social minefield!
It’s made me ponder. To those of you who say it’s just geographical and harmless- would you address the Queen as “love”? No? What about your headmistress when you were at school? The CEO of your company? Your vicar? Your child’s teacher?
At some point in your social hierarchy, you presumably DO feel it’s ok. And I’d hazard a guess that it’s at the point of social equality, or with those you regard as socially inferior.
And maybe that’s the problem - did OP feel that the delivery driver was demeaning her by using language to show that he regarded her as equal or inferior to himself? That he was using a subtle put down, to stick a woman back in her place?
I’m from a long line of Geordies. I used to occasionally address nervous patients as “pet” in the operating theatre. Not as a wish to demean, but as a friendly reassurance/comfort before submitting them to potentially life threatening procedures. Yet I never addressed older colleagues that way. None of the patients seemed to take it amiss, but maybe they could tell my intention was good. And I think OP may well be right that her driver’s wasn’t.

WhiskeyLullaby · 09/11/2019 16:37

You have given some of us a bit of a laugh,

It wasn't just a laugh though was it, and I bet OP didn't find anything funny about the masses of insulting messages and personal attacks like bitch,stuck up,snobby,classist and many more or the sneering that she had issue with it but shops at ASDA.

All the while the same posters going on about the poor man and even worrying if he's ok.

Stillmuddlingthrough · 09/11/2019 16:41

Erm... Bertrand - are you denying what I regularly hear with my own ears in Yorkshire. Why would I lie? Just like pet in the north east - in my own experience of many years spent there it is a routine part of the dialect - even experienced it in a professional business context. While I have no idea how this man meant it (and possibly the part of the country would have been helpful context from the original thread OP) it is part of the language for some to both sexes and by sexes and for those specific people is then in no way sexist.

BertrandRussell · 09/11/2019 16:43

No. I am just saying that it is in no way commonplace in the bits of Yorkshire I frequent, and I would certainly not recommend trying it. But it’s a big county.......

HappyHammy · 09/11/2019 16:46

Maybe the driver felt a bit under attack, did anyone else in the family get involved?

Driechdrizzle · 09/11/2019 16:47

All the while the same posters going on about the poor man and even worrying if he's ok.

Women are so kind to men, even when they are being horrible to one of us.

BarbaraStrozzi · 09/11/2019 16:48

The point about the thread in question was that the poster specifically asked the driver not to call her that at which point he took umbrage, which was totally unreasonable of him.

(Having lived in Leeds for many years, it's not a term that bothers me, and my experience is different from Bertrand's - I have indeed heard adult males call each other "love". It is more commonly directed towards women, by both sexes.)

Stillmuddlingthrough · 09/11/2019 16:51

Babdoc- certainly is interesting. I would agree it is more relaxed language generally and context is everything - I have, however, come across it more formally too (Not love but similar) and it really genuinely wasn’t used in a demeaning way by the person to me (they were significantly more senior than me).

VeryLittleOwl · 09/11/2019 16:56

I thought I was being oversensitive in my mid-20s when I really didn't like a colleague (also in mid-20s) calling me 'doll', but after a quick chat with the other 5 women in the department, all about the same age, we decided to raise it and management backed us.

Two decades on, in my mid-40s, I am now trying to re-train an architect I and two female colleagues (aged nearly 50 and late 50s) are working with to address his emails to 'Everyone' or 'All' rather than 'Girls'. Nothing seems to change, does it?

PlanDeRaccordement · 09/11/2019 16:57

Yes a woman has a right to say a certain term makes her uncomfortable. But she does not have an automatic right to also say that the term is sexist, derogatory or abusive.
Discomfort does not automatically mean you’ve been victimised by a perpetrator.

BertrandRussell · 09/11/2019 17:01

“ But she does not have an automatic right to also say that the term is sexist, derogatory or abusive.“
If she has asked for the term not to be used and it continues she has an absolute right to say that it is any or all of those things.

CarolCutrere · 09/11/2019 17:01

I call other women 'hen' and men younger than myself 'son'. These are ingrained speech patterns. If you asked me not to use them I might remember, I might not. If someone from another region tells me I'mwrongto use them they will be given short shrift. I have no tolerance for my specific dialect of Scots being policed

I have lived in Scotland all my life. I've never called another woman "hen" and I would very much dislike being called "hen". I can't actually recall being called "hen".

I would never call a younger man "son". My late father-in- law and my mother-in-law called /call my husband "son" which sets my teeth on edge- I mean why ? We know he is your son but I think that's a class thing.

BertrandRussell · 09/11/2019 17:04

“ - I have indeed heard adult males call each other "love".

Are you sure you weren’t in Briggate? Grin

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 09/11/2019 17:04

Not only did we not have the context nor tone of the usage of "love" but nor did we get told exactly how the op requested that the driver not call her it. Apparently he said that she was being abusive and maybe she was. Who knows? At the point that her DH joined in the driver left again saying they were being abusive.

Who knows which party was over reacting?

cushioncovers · 09/11/2019 17:06

Both men and women have the right to ask another person not to address them in a way they don't like. Whether that person does or not is a different story.

The other thread is about an ASDA driver who had a spat with a customer over a missing chicken on her order.

CarolCutrere · 09/11/2019 17:08

Getting upset by a grocery delivery man calling you 'love' is just silly

That wouldn't bother me. I assume the driver would say "mate" to my husband. I think there are nuances here which make hard and fast rules difficult. Being called "mate" or "hen" in any context would annoy me. A cheery, non- patronising "love" wouldn't.

Driechdrizzle · 09/11/2019 17:13

The OP on the other thread has said she felt seriously patronised by the delivery driver. I would object to being called "love" by a man, unless he was family, or unless he called men "love" too, which most don't unless they're in certain parts of the country.

The driver called her abusive. He was totally out of order. She's a customer.

BarbaraStrozzi · 09/11/2019 17:14

Grin Bertrand

Bus stop outside the Merion centre. Middle aged bloke to male bus driver.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 09/11/2019 17:16

The driver called her abusive. He was totally out of order. She's a customer.

Do you not think that customers can be abusive then?

WhiskeyLullaby · 09/11/2019 17:17

Women are so kind to men, even when they are being horrible to one of us.

This is what I find baffling and if I'm honest,quite concerning.

CarolCutrere · 09/11/2019 17:19

The driver called her abusive. He was totally out of order. She's a customer

What is the other thread? Context really is everything here. "Love" might have been innocuous and friendly or patronising and sinister.

PlanDeRaccordement · 09/11/2019 17:22

@BertrandRussell
I disagree because whether a term is sexist, derogatory or abusive is not determined by the individual woman feeling uncomfortable or the number of times it is said. It is determined by the larger consensus among women and the law and the courts.

Say a woman was uncomfortable being called “madam” or “miss” or “Mrs”. She can ask not to be addressed that way, but failure for the other to obey instantly does not automatically mean they are being sexist, derogatory or abusive.

If the terms are things like “bitch” “whore” “slut” “babydoll” “honeybuns” “sugartits” “girly” well they are sexist, derogatory and abusive even said one time.

Being over familiar and using terms of endearment like “love” “m’dear” “mon Cherie” and so on are not sexist, derogatory or abusive either as they are between equals. To be offended is to be classist and assert you are not equals but above the sayer.

AlmostChristmas2019 · 09/11/2019 17:23

I take the Danish approach to this: Is it meant in an offensive way?

If yes, I'll rip them a new one.

If not, I don't care one way or another,

BertrandRussell · 09/11/2019 17:24

“ Being over familiar and using terms of endearment like “love” “m’dear” “mon Cherie” and so on are not sexist, derogatory or abusive either as they are between equals.”

Only if the person using those terms would use them equally to men and to women.