Do women have the right to say they feel uncomfortable over a name?

[SarahNade]

I hope this is as safe place to ask this. I am on a discussion on another thread, and it seems many think that a woman has no right to ask not to be addressed by a colloquial term, and if she does ask, she is the one being unreasonable for daring to stick her neck out, she is the one overreacting, for merely asking. Yet the male who went politely asked, gets offended that a woman dares utter her discomfort, and gets abusive with her. So why is it the woman who is 'overreacting' by merely asking not to be called something, but the man is not seen as overreacting by taking offence to her request and getting indignant?

Do women have the right to ask politely not be called something, without being told they are 'overreacting'? Or should women accept being called a term they don't like, shut up and put up with it in case she gets the male in trouble?

I am unquestionably socioeconomic group AB and according to a BBC class survey "elite". It would not occur to me to use a term of endearment to a delivery man but if I did and he didn't like it he is entitled to ask me to stop it. It has nothing to do with asserting class.

You've not understood how it works. As an elite, of course you would never use a colloquial term of endearment to a delivery man, that would imply he was your equal. As it would if he called you by a similar term.

Well I suppose you ask them nicely not to call you it. You can't control their reaction to your request though - some will stop, some will be upset, some will be offended, some might refuse to comply.

I suppose what you do thereafter depends on how important it is to you.

I can't really advise but it simply isn't important to.me and so not something I give much thought to.

I choose my battles and this isn't the hill.im going to die on

Hang on- are people really saying that men call women “love” to show that they consider them equals?

You've not understood how it works. As an elite, of course you would never use a colloquial term of endearment to a delivery man, that would imply he was your equal. As it would if he called you by a similar term.

@goosefoot. Very well explained how classism works. Colloquial terms used between equals can never be used from a lower class person to a higher class person without causing offence to the higher class person. Similarly, a higher class person would never use a colloquial term used between equals to a lower class person because that would either imply you are equal to them, when you are not, or that you are being patronising and slumming.
In the case of a delivery driver addressing a home owner, there is a clear class divide of tradesman/servant to lady of the house/customer. Therefore her feeling offended has more to do with class differential between her and the delivery driver than the sex differences.

Too, you have to look at power imbalance in the situation. As the higher class customer with power over the lower class delivery servant/tradesman, she has the power in the interaction, not him.

Would the delivery man have called the customer “love” if she had been a man?

No he wouldn’t.

Weird how people claim to be able to see class dynamics, about which they have to make huge assumptions about the woman who objected to a man calling her love, but they remain wilfully blind about the power dynamics of sexual politics. She was someone getting an Asda home delivery, she wasn’t employing a butler.

@BertrandRussell
Other posters have said it depends on the region the OP is in?
So possibly, yes, or possibly the gendered equivalent which is “mate” is it not?

But in all regions that do use “love” it is always a colloquial term of endearment used between equals. It communicates, “you’re one of us”.
(Us being lower class British)

If the ASDA OP called “CanadaLife” is actually Canadian then it’s even more complex because not saying “love” might be taken as anti-immigrant sentiment. Because if the regional practice is to address your equals Brits as “love” , then not doing it would be exclusionary and treating the OP differently on the basis of her nationality. Canadian accents don’t have class markers that a delivery driver would be able to pick up on. So he might have seriously been also using “love” to show he is welcoming to immigrants.

The OP for the ASDA delivery driver hasn’t said where they are or confirmed her nationality which makes it even more contentious.

Basically, anything, however far fetched, to excuse men’s behaviour and to deny the existence of sexism and misogyny.

Male supremacy means men have power over women, whatever other differences there are between us. Hence why some men like to call us love or other false terms of endearment to put us in our place. It’s clearly not friendly given how angry they get when we ask them not to do it.

“ But in all regions that do use “love” it is always a colloquial term of endearment used between equals. It communicates, “you’re one of us”.

It absolutely is not. Men use it frequently to show that women are not their equals.

Mumsnet keeps making me laugh out loud at the moment. It’s very enjoyable. That was very funny Plan.

You've not understood how it works. As an elite, of course you would never use a colloquial term of endearment to a delivery man, that would imply he was your equal. As it would if he called you by a similar term

What utter nonsense. I would not use a colloquial term of endearment to any stranger. You have it exactly the opposite way round. The delivery man or woman are entitled to the same consideration and politeness as I am.

I should say, male supremacy allows men to exercise power over us

@dreichdrizzle
There are no huge assumptions when discussing classism. It exists today and is as real and powerful as sexism.
Funny you use the Butler example, because a butler is an upper servant who would have servants of his own. They are often paid over £100k/yr and so technically are middle class. A delivery driver on minimum wage is one of the lowest servants, below even a footman. On level with a scullery maid to be specific.
I agree you have to look at power dynamics. The power dynamic is sexism is the man having power over the woman. In this scenario, it is the woman who has power over the man. Which makes sexism even less likely. Unless it is sexist for a lower class man to presume he is an equal to a higher class woman? But no, that’s actually her being classist, it him being sexist.

BertrandRussell

Basically, anything, however far fetched, to excuse men’s behaviour and to deny the existence of sexism and misogyny

Are you referring to PlanDeRaccordement's latest work of fiction about being welcoming to immigrants? It's a cracker.

Assuming that you’re not taking the piss- and that is a pretty big assumption- I am perfectly happy (as a member of the elite) for a delivery man to use my first name, but not “love” or any other endearment.

Sexism exists, yes. Sexism is things like being told oh you must meet Dr X, and when being introduced to a couple assuming that the Dr is the male half of the couple. Sexism is women being called infantilising terms like “baby” or “girly” or if against men, “boy” or “kiddo”

But in the scenario of the ASDA driver it is more likely the OPs discomfort was due to classist bias than sexist behaviour.
Saying that does not deny the existence of sexism or misogyny. Not everything that makes a woman uncomfortable is sexism.

Men at every level of society can exercise power over women, because they are awarded higher status than women.

We see it at work on both threads where the OP faced the injunction to ‘be kind’ and accused of classism for a mild request whereas the delivery driver was supported in calling her both love and abusive.

Do you mind being called love and darling by men who aren’t friends or family Plan?

Are you referring to PlanDeRaccordement's latest work of fiction about being welcoming to immigrants? It's a cracker.

Well, being French, all I can say is that during the time I lived in the U.K. I did feel less welcome when at a butcher the staff called everyone english “love” or “mate” and I was simply nothing. It felt like cold politeness, like barely tolerated. I felt much more welcomed when I was greeted and treated the same as the locals.

‘Kiddo’

Hahahaha. That’s not what happens.

Oh you're the woman moaning about the delivery driver? Are you really still going on about this?

Do you mind being called love and darling by men who aren’t friends or family Plan?

No, I do not mind. I live by the saying, when in Rome, do as Romans do. I tend to respect and adopt the practices of the local people without judgement or imposing my culture. After all, that is simply a modern form of colonialism, is it not? To force your culture on a local people.

I’m not a member of the elite. I rate as the scullery maid in your class scenario Plan (thanks for that, it made me laugh). I still really, really object to men I don’t know calling me love or darling.

Men at every level of society can exercise power over women, because they are awarded higher status than women.

Only if you ignore intersectionality entirely.
A working class man has no power over the Duchess of Sussex, a royal black woman.

So if I explain to you that in this society, men routinely use terms such as “love” and “m’dear” and “girl” to put women down and to minimise their contribution, are you going to tell me I am wrong. Why do you think you understand the nuance of my culture better than I do? Would you like me to explain “vous/tu” to you? Or “Madame/mademoiselle”?