Frack's reference post

[FrackOff]

Hi All
I have been asked in various threads for references. I am starting a new thread as I've lost track of all the conversations. I wasn't going to bother as people usually don't want to read them but since one or two have said they really do want to read them with an open mind, here are a few.

Reidar Schei Jessen & Katrina Roen (2019) Balancing in the margins
of gender: exploring psychologists’ meaning-making in their work with gender non- conforming youth seeking puberty suppression, Psychology & Sexuality, 10:2, 119-131, DOI: 10.1080/19419899.2019.1568290

ABSTRACT
The past 15 years have seen the growth of puberty suppression as the prevailing approach to supporting gender non-conforming children and youth. Puberty suppression is considered to provide time for weighing up the pros and cons of medical transition. Research based on binary under- standings of gender has demonstrated that a carefully selected group of gender non-conforming youth benefit from physical treatment and gender transition, but the research that details how psychologists can best support young people during this time is limited. This is the gap addressed by the current research. The purpose of the present study is to explore the meaning-making framework within which some clinical psychologists and gender non-conforming youth approach discussions of puberty suppression. Five semi-structured interviews were conducted with clinical psychologists working with gender non-conforming youth. The data were analysed using thematic analysis. The results indicate that there is pressure on gender non- conforming youth, often coming from families, friends and mass media, to buy into heteronormative and binary discourses regarding gender and what constitutes a good life. The results also indicate that the participants deploy affirmative and exploratory therapeutic strategies in their work, in order to enable gender non-conforming youth to make informed decisions regarding puberty suppression. Participants emphasized the importance of therapeutic approaches that explore non-binary gender discourses, alongside the use of puberty suppression and other medical interventions that enable clients to fit more with gender norms. The therapeutic balance between affirmation and exploration may shed light on how both research within the binary tradition and critics of binary assumptions are in danger of oversimplifying the process of gender identity development. This research highlights the importance of understanding the complex negotiation of gender discourses that are in tension with one another.

I'm happy to have shared something some might find helpful

Yes, but only if they’re privileged enough to have a university log in eh Frack ?

I’ve found your posts extremely helpful, just not necessarily in the way you intended

Nobody would dare to oppose the hegemonic commentary here

I’m going to go with the explanation that most people reading are open mouthed at the shocking attitude towards experimenting on children that your posts reveal. It seems most likely to be honest

Frack should have done this, as it's their thread, but here are links to the full text of two of Frack's papers (no paywall).

Second paper Zucker et al

Fourth paper Sansfacon et al

I haven't managed to find a free access version of the other two.

Frack, it's good that you're pleased with yourself. Lots of encouraging PMs, I have no doubt.

Was thinking exactly the same!

Frack, it's good that you're pleased with yourself. Lots of encouraging PMs, I have no doubt.

Gah! I was hoping to be the first to shout HOUSE!

Nobody would dare to oppose the hegemonic commentary here because the backlash is harsh.

Generally speaking, I would say that you've had very measured responses to your shilling for medical interventions in minors that produce anorgasmic, infertile adults.

Re access to articles, any teenager or friend at any uni can download and email these articles. There are people on here who can do that for each other if needed- someone could set up a Dropbox, maybe.

DO NOT ASK A STUDENT OR FRIEND SHARE THE ARTICLES, check the copyright restrictions first.
If they are caught sharing a copyright article they could lose their login privileges, or worse.

You could cause them a lot of problems with their studies or at work, you'd think an academic would know that

Here's an article written about Frack's first paper.

digest.bps.org.uk/2019/02/25/norwegian-clinical-psychologists-reveal-the-complexities-involved-in-working-with-children-and-teens-experiencing-gender-dysphoria/

It does seem to cover the issue of homophobic parents pushing their gender non-conforming children towards transition.

Kids who are gender nonconforming often make adults uncomfortable, and in some cases one way adults attempt to dispel this discomfort is to push for transition. “The [clinical psychologist] participants have the impression that sometimes the school or family expect these young boys to transition to girls,” write Jessen and Roen, “because they do not want them to be feminine boys. This illustrates how difficult it can sometimes be to understand which expectations belong to whom, and how gender non-conforming youth can be referred to the clinic by adults who hold the opinion that gender non-conformity is a problem to be addressed clinically.”

Hegemonic commentary.

Here's an article showing how an astonishing 6,500 genes are expressed differently in men and women.

www.bionews.org.uk/page_95987

I'm reading and not commenting (oops) and learning loads!

Probably not learning what Frack thinks I should be learning though...

Re blocker side effects, like any medication it's a question of how much someone feels they need it.

‘Feels they need it? Fuck me, I’m incredulous!

My little girl would’ve said the Cushing’s syndrome she developed from dexamethasone use weren’t reasonable, because she didn’t ‘feel’ like she needed dexamethasone.

It wasn’t her decision to make, it was her consultants. Without treatment she would’ve died.

This is why we don’t leave medical decisions to minors.

Thanks OldCrone

From that article:

In reading their work, I was struck repeatedly by how similar their experiences were to what I heard when I spoke with American clinicians for an in-depth article about transgender youth for The Atlantic.

So the article FrackOff shared to make their point has strong similarities to the Atlantic article FrackOff dismissed on the Trans Kids thread as “right wing media/Russian/Polish trolling”

You couldn’t make it up 🤣🤣🤣

I am reading but not commenting as others have already said what I wish to about the appalling 'ethics' of medically experimenting on a child and then plastering it all over the internet and TV for personal financial gain as Jazz Jenning's parents and doctors have done for example.

Others have also noted both the illegality and classism involved in expecting people to know someone who can share university logins (I'm a graduate myself and know no one who has such access well enough to ask to breach regulations even if I were the sort of person to make such an unreasonable request).

Others have also highlighted the deficiencies in the studies cited and the known problems of puberty blocking drugs when used in precocious puberty and in 'gender reassignment' so yes, it has been helpful. Helpful in showing the lack of argument in favour of continuing this experimentation on children and helpful in highlighting the attitudes of those, like Frack, who are pushing this agenda.

I'm not sure why I'm bothering...but

@FrackOff
Blockers have been in use for years for other conditions, so would have gone through double blind trials before becoming available. Re blocker side effects, like any medication it's a question of how much someone feels they need it.

You really have no idea how the pharmaceutical industry develops, licenses and regulates drugs, do you? Or how paediatric clinical trials work?

Lupron (and other GnRH analogues) were originally FDA licensed to for use in end-stage prostate cancer. In 1993, the makers of Lupron applied for (and got) a license for use on children with precocious puberty. They have never been licensed for suppressing puberty in trans kids, and are therefore being used off-label. Where drugs are being used off-label, the manufacturer has no liability for adverse side-effects. It should be noted that off-label use results in a higher incidence of adverse drug events - journal article on adults here which refers to children

I'd like to point to you to the label and Abbvie's own clinical trials site which contains some interesting information on what studies were actually done:

label here
easy-to-read information on the Phase 3/4 trials here

If you actually look at the data, actual Phase 3 / 4 results here average treatment length was 4 years, with a follow-up 4 months after the final injection. No longer term safety studies were carried out prior to the license being granted.

The Phase 3 study indicated that adverse effects caused by treatment occurred in 62% of subjects, of which the most common were emotional lability, rash, acne and vasodilation, while 94.5% reported treatment-emergent adverse events. Severe adverse events were reported in 7 of the 55 children that took part in the Phase 3 study.

The longer-term safety studies (Phase 4) relate solely to final adult height and restoration of fertility. If you actually look at the secondary endpoints of the study, while they say "Girls resumed reproductive development following treatment with 1-month LUPRON DEPOT-PED1", this was based on a post-treatment survey of 20 girls, of whom 20% reported abnormal menstrual cycles. 10% of males showed no signs of Tanner stage advancement in the 6 months following cessation of treatment. Although bone density was included in the Phase 3 study, it was not included in the Phase 4 study, despite irreversible bone thinning noted as a complication in the adult label.

The label itself notes that no clinical trials have been performed to assess resumption of fertility: Although no clinical studies have been completed in children to assess the full reversibility of fertility suppression, but points instead to animal studies.

No long-term studies were performed on carcinogenesis or mutagenesis on children, instead they relied on animal studies and effects in adult patients (with a maximum treatment length of 2 to 3 years - dependent on dosage).

So no, puberty blockers have not gone through any double blind trials in the way that you seem to think, the long-term effect has not been studied (as the original indication was for end-stage prostate cancer, no long-term studies were required) and the safety data is extremely questionable.

DistantVworp - thank you for that.

Frack - oops. Like I said upthread: you actually typed that, didn't you.

I am on my phone now so can't post any articles re what people called ROGD but from what I have read and can post later, it is not a robust phenomenon.

What does that mean? How do you account for the 76 children identifying as trans in one school in Brighton?

Or the 10 girls coming out simultaneously, all in the same year at a well-known girls' school?

86 children? Is that not robust enough?

Or do you prescribe it to another foolish poster's assertion that it was probably 'something in the water'?

I seem to have read in this thread that one of these papers, posted as evidence to debunk adolescent onset gender dysphoria, describes a homosexual boy being socially and medically transitioned because he was dealing with both internal and external homophobia. And this was presented without a disclaimer from the OP that she does not endorse conversion therapy of gay and lesbian teens? And was presented as a positive outcome?

I read that too, Jane, along with The recommendation for blockers was also reliably associated with... a homosexual sexual orientation.

I think we'd all be interested to hear why that doesn't count as drastic gay conversion therapy.

Fantastically informative thread. Which is always the way when someone tries to justify puberty blockers and cross sex hormones for children.

I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve asked the same question about Jazz Jennings and received nothing.

I worry so much about Jazz ☹️☹️

Datun, well that tends to happen whenever these threads drill down into actual concrete data rather than being diverted into airy philosophy of 'what is a woman, really?'. That's precisely why #NoDebate was a tactic.

We have had a few posters recently who say they're young nonbinary or trans people.

Or alternatively, the word was used as a jargon term to try and shut down the line of questioning. Might be an accepted academic method in places like Goldsmiths etc.