Frack's reference post

[FrackOff]

Hi All
I have been asked in various threads for references. I am starting a new thread as I've lost track of all the conversations. I wasn't going to bother as people usually don't want to read them but since one or two have said they really do want to read them with an open mind, here are a few.

Reidar Schei Jessen & Katrina Roen (2019) Balancing in the margins
of gender: exploring psychologists’ meaning-making in their work with gender non- conforming youth seeking puberty suppression, Psychology & Sexuality, 10:2, 119-131, DOI: 10.1080/19419899.2019.1568290

ABSTRACT
The past 15 years have seen the growth of puberty suppression as the prevailing approach to supporting gender non-conforming children and youth. Puberty suppression is considered to provide time for weighing up the pros and cons of medical transition. Research based on binary under- standings of gender has demonstrated that a carefully selected group of gender non-conforming youth benefit from physical treatment and gender transition, but the research that details how psychologists can best support young people during this time is limited. This is the gap addressed by the current research. The purpose of the present study is to explore the meaning-making framework within which some clinical psychologists and gender non-conforming youth approach discussions of puberty suppression. Five semi-structured interviews were conducted with clinical psychologists working with gender non-conforming youth. The data were analysed using thematic analysis. The results indicate that there is pressure on gender non- conforming youth, often coming from families, friends and mass media, to buy into heteronormative and binary discourses regarding gender and what constitutes a good life. The results also indicate that the participants deploy affirmative and exploratory therapeutic strategies in their work, in order to enable gender non-conforming youth to make informed decisions regarding puberty suppression. Participants emphasized the importance of therapeutic approaches that explore non-binary gender discourses, alongside the use of puberty suppression and other medical interventions that enable clients to fit more with gender norms. The therapeutic balance between affirmation and exploration may shed light on how both research within the binary tradition and critics of binary assumptions are in danger of oversimplifying the process of gender identity development. This research highlights the importance of understanding the complex negotiation of gender discourses that are in tension with one another.

You made it to the end Melroses!

Yes I did - it turned out to be at bit further before the end than I anticipated so I ended up listening to all the bollox about fire people and hair ironing over and over. Such condescending bollox (and I have been condescended to on twitter by this person before so should not be surprised). Then there is a bit about the little sausage you can wee through but isn't any use for anything else . I wonder why this person has been so instrumental in the background for change which has made transitioning easier, especially the young, yet thinks people are stupid to do it

I think female people in general who support genderism have a lot of internalised misogyny. That's why they find it so hard to distinguish between their inner feelings of 'identity' and stereotyped sex roles. They do actually identify with that shit on some level. Or they don't but they believe that's what a woman is so they must not be one.

There was a lot of ambivalence in Stephen's talk. I found the whole thing quite sad.

And lots of trans people with a surgically constructed 'little sausage' find it's not even functional for weeing through.

Yes it's awful isn't it? Only one in five trans people who have had a vaginoplasty are still able to have an orgasm.

If anyone considers that an acceptable outcome then that makes me sad for them.

Yes it's awful isn't it? Only one in five trans people who have had a vaginoplasty are still able to have an orgasm. I'm assuming that figure is for all ages in this group, most of whom will have transitioned as adults, when they already had mature genital tissue to work with. Those who were given puberty blocking drugs as children don't even have that advantage

Yes this needs to be reiterated. It will only be (1 in 5 of) those whose penis and prostate were sexually mature before the operation that will be able to orgasm. Children whose bodies are suspended at a prepubertal stage will not be able to. That’s what puberty is: the development of secondary sexual characteristics.

@FrackOff
Convention on mumsnet is to avoid @ someone but I have delurked once again to make sure you read my message. This thread has been the best I have seen in a long time because you have convinced me once again that academics are living the bubble.
My question to you as a parent of a ROGD child is this:
If you had a male child/teen would you let them cut off their penis and have a surgical hole that allows them to be penetrated but has no function other than this?
If you agree with this statement then you are reducing female as a sex object whose purpose is to be penetrated.
My only conclusion to this is that you are a man. No women would see themselves as a fuck hole.
yet you are advocating this as you want children to be put on puberty blockers that prevents them from having any satisfaction for them but allows the penetrators to get their kicks.
There is something wrong with your thinking and as a woman I can only assume that you are a male.
You want to support kids who are feeling distressed. I understand this. Your support however will mean they are reliant on drugs for ever. Is this something you want for young people? Do you really want young people to be dependent on drugs? Do you see this as the only option? If your child asked why they have to take off licence drugs for the rest off their life and why you agreed to let them dilate a wound for the rest of their life, would you say it is in their best interest or would you say no one actually cares about you so this is the best we can do? Would you tell them that you wished the medical profession would stop and think about this or would you say doctors know best? Would you wonder if this might resolve itself if no intervention was made or would you think Doctors know best? Would you not just say to yourself I know my child and something has gone wrong in their thought processes and I need to find out what and why? Wold you not just want someone to listen to you and say your chlid is young; they are still developing and until they are of an age of full maturation, which we now now is about 25, just let them be and give them a true chance to find out what they really want? Is this not prudent?

I think you have no idea about children and you are being a theorist without any credibility. No parent and I repeat no parent would wish this on their child so stop trying to normalise an abnormal condition. Advocate for exploration which will try to uncover why a child/teen feels so distressed about their sex. I bet you that once you allow for this our kids will be mentally better equipped to deal with stereotypical expectations and will rise above it without compromising their health and without having to drastically alter their body through surgery.

As a parent, I ask this of you. Please try and convince me you are right as I am struggling with all this. All I ask is for someone to "leave our kids alone" Give them a chance

Just bumping this thread to give to JanesKettle and iamright17 and others who are dealing with this on a daily basis and to highlight how incredibly disrespectful it is for FrackOff to ignore their questions, and push an ideology and “academic” theories on their children by proxy. I’m sure FrackOff is “busy” but at the very least you could acknowledge these people even if you can’t answer their questions because of the holes in your thinking.

I too would like to see frack respond to iamright17.

I would like frack to ask themselves what gender dysphoria is for? What is it trying to solve? When a child decides that parts of their perfectly healthy body need to be removed, why????

I thing Frack off has fracked off.

Frack’s ‘rubber bullets’ kept bouncing back to them. I reckon Frack is seeking more ammunition out before replying. It would be a pretty deadly response to find to reply to parents who actually do know their child. And I’m not talking all the suicide stats. I mean Frack really has to nail there belief.

Their

Frac clearly didn't expect real experience, intelligence, and questions about their big words. Being questioned and asked an opinion in that first thread threw everything off into having to actually understand and think instead of just parrot and frac clearly has never had that kind of real life resistance to deal with before.

@FrackOff - please come back and answer Iamright17

There are 4 of these little interviews. All are worth watching but I’m choosing this one to send to my gender-hurting step daughter (13).

Helena, Pique Resilience Project.

I don't think Frack will come back but I hope she has gone away with lots of things to think about, including the heartfelt and eloquent posts from those here who have children struggling with gender dysphoria

Frack came here to tell us that ROGD has been 'debunked'. Frack has now conceded that this is not the case. So if you are still lurking Frack, please think about the following questions:

Given that ROGD appears to be a new phenomenon, and given that there has been more than 5000% increase (yes, five thousand percent, not a typo) in the number of girls referred to GIDS each year, in less than a decade, do you not think that we should be treading extremely fucking carefully?

Shouldn't we be be trying to find out why this is happening instead of pretending it isn't and shutting down any research that attempts even the most tentative of explanations?

If children have to be sterilised and rendered anorgasmic in adulthood in order to be their 'authentic selves' then hadn't we better be extremely fucking sure that we are doing these things to the right kids and that there are no better, less invasive and harmful routes to wellbeing for them?

Can 'affirmative care' still be considered ethical by anyone who has properly thought about these issues for longer than 5 minutes?

Frack is unable to come back to me and other parents who are living this because the theories and the wokeness do not stand up to reality. Frack can conjecture as much as possible but when faced with real life, real people and real experiences Frack’s limited worldly experience is highlighted. Academic bubble is not going to cut it as academia has not questioned the real world. It’s all about me and my intelligence and I just want you all to know how clever I am. Put this nonsense to the test and what do you get? A load of shite. This is commonly known as intellectualising. Talk the talk haven’t experienced the walk. Or delusions of grandeur that big words make you special, intelligent and correct. It is not about big words Frack, it is about truth. The truth is you are complicit in spreading a damaging belief that sex is mutable, yet you ask us to trust your intelligence. You may as well tell us that the world is a square. We have the belief that the world is round. Some people think it is flat but let’s throw another theory into the equation and say the world is square. Whilst we ponder this we could also say it actually a triangle or a rectangle or whatever other shapes come to mind. It’s all a load of theory. You are trying to present a theory that has no credibility and has no scientific back up. I know the world is round as I have seen the images that science has confirmed. You need to convince me that my child is transgender. They could be gay; they could have OCD; they could have autism; they could have ptsd; they could have schizophrenia; they could have bpd; they could have been sexually abused; they could be depressed; they could be just a fricking teen. Let them be a teen and they will work through it. Stop trying to say they are trans. It could be a number of things. The earth may be square. Let’s check this out and get the evidence first. Stop putting unsubstantiated thoughts out there without full scientific rigor. As I said, it’s easy to intellectualise to make yourself feel good. Showing and discussing the evidence when other people challenge you and you are unable to substantiate your theory does you no good. It totally discredits you and I hope that you have gone away and realised that your attempt at arguing for child transitioning and puberty blockers has made you Stop and Think. We are all allowed to change our views. I hope you have. No one will say I told you so. It’s a school day every day. none of us are above this. A reminder though in case you don’t recall as you have had loads of replies, I am a parent of a child who is exhibiting ROGD. I wish I could tell you that ROGD is rubbish, and on reflection my child was always non conforming to their gender role. I would be lying though. Please give me the grace to know my child. Stop thinking the child was too scared. My child told me because they believed it would not be a big deal. They did not fear my response. They did not need to hide this. my child thought I would be on board because I am that parent who they could talk to.

Ps. Going back to lurking mode as I get so angry at people like Frack and their know it all. I am in danger of saying things I’m not allowed to say. Well, until the next fracker tries to dismiss parents and who thinks they know better. Fracker thinks we parents are not supporting the child with dysporia. I want Fracker to know I understand the distress but no one as in professional have the strength to stand up and say let’s find out what is going on. As a parent I have to do this. This is not easy and ultimately is driving a wedge with my child. This is supposed to be the job of professionals who we should trust. We don’t have this support. It’s all about affirming. Thankfully the detrans reddit page has over 6000 subscribers in two years which gives me heart that the young people are seeing their dysphoria as a way to express their pain. Thankfully there is a realization as a result of maturity. Have a read Frack. Step outside your bubble. Get different perspectives. You just might be able to empathize with us all

I always think of Ben Goldacre's comments on anorgasmia - he was talking in the context if it being a side effect of SSRIs, not a permanent result of surgery:

“I’m trying to phrase this as neutrally as possible,” Goldacre writes. “I really enjoy the sensation of orgasm. It’s important to me, and everything I experience in the world tells me that this sensation is important to other people too. Wars have been fought, essentially, for the sensation of orgasm.”

You sound like an amazing parent, iamright17. All the best to you and your child.

I am in awe of the mothers fighting for their children on this thread. iamright17, janeskettle and all those others lurking I salute you.

www.transgendertrend.com/transgender-foster-child/

Read and weep.

But you know. ROGD isn't real. Posh people aren't imposing a navel-gazing, anti-materialist, theocratic notion onto the genuinely marginalised and vulnerable, leading to a trail of devastation. Oh no. No classism in this movement at all.

What Lang said

To the mums 💐

Telling ROGD parents that it isn't a robust phenomenon, reminds me of all the people who tell trans widows that AGP doesn't exist.

Bumping for the weekend and also for Freck. I really want a response because you seem so knowledgeable in your belief. I want to hear more about this and figure out if I am wrong. So far I don’t see this. Please convince me as it would make my life easier. It would make me say to myself and others that there truly is a gendered brain/soul/essence. Get me off the hook and convince me that I’m wrong. I have tried for two years to search the evidence. In fact if you want to know my knowledge I would run rings round you. I wake up and I research. I go to work and I research. I come home and I research. Nothing you can say to me is something I dont already know. Indeed the information I know would be enough to write plus ten thesis. I don’t need to be in academia to present this. In fact no one needs to be in academia to acknowledge that sex is immutable. Stop trying to make this sound academic. It is basic. Male/ female.
I was out tonight and saw a labradoodle. I asked the owners what type of dog. They said it is a cross between a poodle and a labrador. I said oh. It’s not a Labrador. They said no it’s a cross. They did not want their dog to identify as a poodle or a Labrador. Not a great analogy but at least these owners knew their dog was not a poodle and not a Labrador. In my head I saw this akin to tran women and trans men. They are not the sex they say. They have their own distinct name. Does this make sense.

Name changed for something else, haven't changed back yet, but it's Janes.

Please convince me as it would make my life easier. It would make me say to myself and others that there truly is a gendered brain/soul/essence. Get me off the hook and convince me that I’m wrong. I have tried for two years to search the evidence

This so much. It is difficult to be in this position of resisting. I look forward to my kid turning 18, because at least then, it will be legally out of my hands and my resistance won't mean much anyway.

I have begged the genderists to show me the evidence that is strong enough that I can ethically cease resisting. It doesn't exist. They can never find it.

Do the reading, they say, and we do, and we come back and say 'hey, this seems ableist, it seems ageist, it seems homophobic, explain to me how it isn't', and they won't or they can't.