Frack's reference post

[FrackOff]

Hi All
I have been asked in various threads for references. I am starting a new thread as I've lost track of all the conversations. I wasn't going to bother as people usually don't want to read them but since one or two have said they really do want to read them with an open mind, here are a few.

Reidar Schei Jessen & Katrina Roen (2019) Balancing in the margins
of gender: exploring psychologists’ meaning-making in their work with gender non- conforming youth seeking puberty suppression, Psychology & Sexuality, 10:2, 119-131, DOI: 10.1080/19419899.2019.1568290

ABSTRACT
The past 15 years have seen the growth of puberty suppression as the prevailing approach to supporting gender non-conforming children and youth. Puberty suppression is considered to provide time for weighing up the pros and cons of medical transition. Research based on binary under- standings of gender has demonstrated that a carefully selected group of gender non-conforming youth benefit from physical treatment and gender transition, but the research that details how psychologists can best support young people during this time is limited. This is the gap addressed by the current research. The purpose of the present study is to explore the meaning-making framework within which some clinical psychologists and gender non-conforming youth approach discussions of puberty suppression. Five semi-structured interviews were conducted with clinical psychologists working with gender non-conforming youth. The data were analysed using thematic analysis. The results indicate that there is pressure on gender non- conforming youth, often coming from families, friends and mass media, to buy into heteronormative and binary discourses regarding gender and what constitutes a good life. The results also indicate that the participants deploy affirmative and exploratory therapeutic strategies in their work, in order to enable gender non-conforming youth to make informed decisions regarding puberty suppression. Participants emphasized the importance of therapeutic approaches that explore non-binary gender discourses, alongside the use of puberty suppression and other medical interventions that enable clients to fit more with gender norms. The therapeutic balance between affirmation and exploration may shed light on how both research within the binary tradition and critics of binary assumptions are in danger of oversimplifying the process of gender identity development. This research highlights the importance of understanding the complex negotiation of gender discourses that are in tension with one another.

I know hundreds of working class academics and uni students. Just because people are badly under-served by the education system doesn't mean they lack the ability to access and read academic articles if they need to.

You don't need kids anyway- you have friends on this very page who can assist, if the will is there.

I don't see your point @LangCleg. Yes I did write that.

@littlbrowndog kids are given strong meds all the time. Just look at the problematic number of overmedicated kids with diagnoses of ADHD. ADHD medication is amphetamine sulphate- the same as the street drug speed. It stunts growth.

Other kids with depression are given Prozac- from as young a 7 in some places. This can flatten emotional development and cause sexual dysfunction.

Even ibuprofen can cause stomach ulcers.

In the UK it can take years even to start discussing blockers and then more months to decide if they are appropriate. These decisions are not taken lightly.

Well, that spoiled my fun! Maybe I should stay up late and wait or such posts. Then I can get my tuppen'orth in in good time!

The idea of doing a double blind trial on existing trans kids isn't ethical when the vast body of international data, including longterm retrospective data, points firmly towards affirmative care as the approach with the best ourcomes for children's mental health Ignoring the blindingly obvious - that sort of suggests that non Trans kids are fair game! Silly Frack!

Longer term datasets covering several years, Well, that explained the word 'longterm' but have you considered the more usual terminology - longitudinal? We would understand what you meant if you did, honest!

@NotBadConsidering

I have already responded to all your arguments above

And

I find what you are saying about Jazz Jennings incredibly triggering, gross and unethical.

the vast body of international data

Yet you chose not to give us any of this?

find what you are saying about Jazz Jennings incredibly triggering, gross and unethical

But what she said was the truth

You find the truth triggering, gross and unethical?

ALL THE CONFUSED FACES

What? You found a post of factual, verifiable, acknowledged nformation to be incredibly triggering, gross and unethical.

Triggering is your issue - I am sorry you have issues.

Gross - yeah, other people's sex lives often elcits that response, doesn't stop a whole host of weekly magazines though!

Unethical - erm!! How dos that work on an anonymous internet forum? When talking baout information freely available, non censored and often from the individuals concerned?

Ah, so that one stung, didn't it? I repeat - it is unreasonable to expect people to read articles that they need academic credentials to access. "I have working class friends!" is not an effective counterargument. Feel free to cut and paste any bits you find particularly compelling and then perhaps everyone will read them.

It would probably help if you could find sources that are up to date and not from obscure journals that show obvious bias, too.

Jazz Jennings incredibly triggering, gross and unethical

I am glad we can agree that what Jazz Jennings has been subject to is both gross and unethical. The fact you find it triggering suggests you may be better to remove yourself from the debate, it is certainly not a reason to avoid discussing it.

Bad kitty, put those stingy claws away

Jazz Jennings has never, and will never have an orgasm as a result of the medical affirmative care for which you advocate

Frack, you are advocating for puberty blockers and cross sex hormones for children. This is what was done to Jazz Jennings, with the results described

I am baffled by your outrage

What's been done to Jazz Jennings by Jazz's parents and doctors is unethical. Talking about it isn't. Talking about it may protect other kids in the future.

Hi frack
I posted this last night could you reply to me about it?I'm not sure I understand it correctly.

The results indicate that there is pressure on gender non- conforming youth, often coming from families, friends and mass media, to buy into heteronormative and binary discourses regarding gender and what constitutes a good life
And later it says:
Participants emphasized the importance of therapeutic approaches that explore non-binary gender discourses, alongside the use of puberty suppression and other medical interventions that enable clients to fit more with gender norms
So because these young people feel pressure to conform to gender norms they should get medical interventions and puperty suppression along side therapeutic approaches so they can conform to gender norms?

I don't see your point @LangCleg. Yes I did write that.

I was pointing out the wilful ignorance. Do provide citations.

‘Triggering’

It’s truth. Are you saying you are being triggered?

The truth is that Jazz Jennings had their penis and testicles removed. This is what the pro trans lobby support.

Where are the studies that study the effect of orchidectomies on young adults.

Oh! oh! Can I tell @FrackOff to check their privilege?

Access to a uni log in is a privilege only available to a minority Frack

Tut tut

The fact that you wish to bury your head in the sand about what Jazz self-declares is grossly unethical.

Blockers have been in use for years for other conditions, so would have gone through double blind trials before becoming available. Re blocker side effects, like any medication it's a question of how much someone feels they need it.

What on earth are you talking about? Show me a double blind trial carried out on the long term effects of puberty blockers begun before the age of 10 on a sample large enough to be significant.

I despair at the lack of humanity, intelligence or ability to reason of people who think that children as young as nine are able to assess the implications of the long term side effects of drugs.

I have posted this before but the medical profession has form for prescribing drugs to children whose effects have never been tested on children. This video explores the practice of prescribing strong anti-psychotic drugs to children based on spurious diagnoses.

www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/medicatedchild/

I find what you are saying about Jazz Jennings incredibly triggering, gross and unethical.

Why do you find it triggering?

Let's depersonalise it then. You are advocating for medical intervention in pre- or pubescent minors that will a) render them infertile, b) reduce their cognitive function and c) is likely to result in the inability to orgasm as an adult.

Does this not give you pause? If not, why not?

Longer term datasets covering several years

Tavi & Port ceases to track the minors it treats once they reach 18. So how do you propose these longer term datasets will be compiled?

I have no access to university log-ins. I have a working-class female job.

The assumption that other people will be happy to share their log-ins and spend time downloading articles is also misplaced.

I’m calling Mermaids volunteer for Frack.

No to mention the unassailable fact that the sharing of log ins is gross misconduct, grounds for instant dismissal!

Lang it may be triggering because it does personalise it. It is so much easier to dismiss depersonalised concerns than having to consider what it means to actual people.

But only some actual people obviously!

Others can just lump it!

Frack, you've intimated that you think puberty blockers have been adequately researched, thought through as a treatment and that the appalling physical side effects wrt bone density etc. and results of the treatment pathway of removing sexual function and desire are just things that any medical treatment may incur.

So why are you getting so very twitchy about the on record, public example of this that has been referenced? If you think it's an acceptable outcome, why is it 'triggering, gross and unethical' to mention it? You should be defending it, shouldn't you? As a perfect example of your medical philosophy?

I do hope you're not using those three terms as a way of saying "I find the consequences to my arguments quite uncomfortable when I actually have to address them. I'd rather discuss abstract concepts" Because that's a rather unhelpful way of belittling the term 'triggered', really.

FrackOff you haven’t answered any of my points at all. All you’ve addressed is a bit about ADHD medications and got that wrong:

ADHD medication is amphetamine sulphate- the same as the street drug speed. It stunts growth

There are a number of drugs for ADHD and children are never given amphetamine sulphate. Growth is monitored. If growth slows, the drug can be stopped immediately and growth resumes.

And you’re hypocritical. Growth is stunted permanently with medical affirmative care because children never get their pubertal growth spurt. And they’re infertile and anorgasmic. Is this acceptable to you?