Frack's reference post

[FrackOff]

Hi All
I have been asked in various threads for references. I am starting a new thread as I've lost track of all the conversations. I wasn't going to bother as people usually don't want to read them but since one or two have said they really do want to read them with an open mind, here are a few.

Reidar Schei Jessen & Katrina Roen (2019) Balancing in the margins
of gender: exploring psychologists’ meaning-making in their work with gender non- conforming youth seeking puberty suppression, Psychology & Sexuality, 10:2, 119-131, DOI: 10.1080/19419899.2019.1568290

ABSTRACT
The past 15 years have seen the growth of puberty suppression as the prevailing approach to supporting gender non-conforming children and youth. Puberty suppression is considered to provide time for weighing up the pros and cons of medical transition. Research based on binary under- standings of gender has demonstrated that a carefully selected group of gender non-conforming youth benefit from physical treatment and gender transition, but the research that details how psychologists can best support young people during this time is limited. This is the gap addressed by the current research. The purpose of the present study is to explore the meaning-making framework within which some clinical psychologists and gender non-conforming youth approach discussions of puberty suppression. Five semi-structured interviews were conducted with clinical psychologists working with gender non-conforming youth. The data were analysed using thematic analysis. The results indicate that there is pressure on gender non- conforming youth, often coming from families, friends and mass media, to buy into heteronormative and binary discourses regarding gender and what constitutes a good life. The results also indicate that the participants deploy affirmative and exploratory therapeutic strategies in their work, in order to enable gender non-conforming youth to make informed decisions regarding puberty suppression. Participants emphasized the importance of therapeutic approaches that explore non-binary gender discourses, alongside the use of puberty suppression and other medical interventions that enable clients to fit more with gender norms. The therapeutic balance between affirmation and exploration may shed light on how both research within the binary tradition and critics of binary assumptions are in danger of oversimplifying the process of gender identity development. This research highlights the importance of understanding the complex negotiation of gender discourses that are in tension with one another.

“Transphobic”

“White Feminism”

“Triggered”

Got any new words that can be thrown out to shut people down and ensure that you don’t have to listen to their arguments? Because those, frankly, are ones we’ve heard hundreds of times before, and they’re not terribly effective these days.

It didn't go quite as she perhaps hoped, and has now been deleted as a TAAT. It's obviously not good that she finds the reality of what she is promoting deeply upsetting, but she absolutely did not come here to gain any insight at all.

Honestly, if you are 100% convinced transing kids is decent medical care, no question, and you don't have time to back up that belief with evidence, and instead just want to make pronouncements about the people who disagree with you, citing your very busy life as a reason not to show your reasoning, and the fact that the things you are pressing for are too distressing to discuss, then people making up their own minds about your thoroughgoing ethics and concern for young people isn't 'gaslighting' you. Sheesh.

Oh that was funny. I've still got the thread up, and I did read her (very long) first post. Frack has been very hard done by here. Very hard done by.

AIBU were not sympathetic unfortunately.

I quite enjoyed 'take a breath', though.

In what way were we gaslighting Frack?

If we talk about that thread does this become a TAATAAT

AIBU were not sympathetic unfortunately.

AIBU isn't. Is there still the message at the top of AIBU reminding everyone that it's not a fight club?

Our monitors could keep themselves busy for weeks over on AIBU. It's fucking brutal. Unless of course, it's just pesky feminists talking about women's rights that they want to censor.

In what way were we gaslighting Frack?

“Gaslighting” = “not agreeing with me”. It’s symptomatic of the loose relationship between words and meaning that TRAs often engineer.

Did frack start a third thread? To slag us off in AIBU??

I don't think I've seen anyone's credibility plummet quite so spectacularly.

Gaslighting” = “not agreeing with me

Well, whoever suggested a trip to AIBU in order to be to be agreed with, must not know MN very well.

Are yous serious is there a 3rd thread?

I think Frack believes as her intentions are good, very good in fact, therefore we must be the baddies. There's a certain logic there.

Well dependiing on which argument best supports theirs at any given time Mumsnet is either a hotbed of transphobia which must be shut down, OR just a few nasty women on the FWR board.

It never occurs seems to occur to TRAs that MN is a massive site, and that there is no hive mind.

It also never seems to occur to them that there are intelligent, experienced, knowledgeable women here who visit the FWR board to talk and read about women's rights and children's safeguarding (a concern of both mothers and feminists), and the women here can form a coherent argument.

There is no gaslighting on this thread - Frack clearly doesn't know the meaning of the word.

Personally, I find it amusing when TRAs underestimate the women here so completely. The thought that women's arguments would just crumble in the face of a few linked studies - HA. Think again..

There could be 101 threads and none of them would give Frack the conclusion they crave.

(Empress I wish I could have been there. Julia speaks so beautifully, even on the most brutal of subject matters).

MNHQ lease please don't delete this thread

So to get back on Frack, woops sorry I mean track. I asked track about this reference twice and I had no engagement from frack.
The results indicate that there is pressure on gender non- conforming youth, often coming from families, friends and mass media, to buy into heteronormative and binary discourses regarding gender and what constitutes a good life
And later it says:
Participants emphasized the importance of therapeutic approaches that explore non-binary gender discourses, alongside the use of puberty suppression and other medical interventions that enable clients to fit more with gender norms
So because these young people feel pressure to conform to gender norms they should get medical interventions and puperty suppression along side therapeutic approaches so they can conform to gender norms?

Our monitors could keep themselves busy for weeks over on AIBU. It's fucking brutal. Unless of course, it's just pesky feminists talking about women's rights that they want to censor.

Every time someone tries to justify the special rules just to keep feminists in line I point out that it's AIBU that's the real bear pit.

Isn’t gaslighting when someone pretends that what is actually happening isn’t happening and makes you think you’re going crazy for thinking no one seems to be doing anything about it?

Like when you’re convinced that children are being left with short stature, no fertility, no sexual function, reduced bone density and ongoing mental health issues and those that are doing it to them say “what are you taking about? Nothing to see here. You crazy!”?

So no one? No one will tell me it's OK to pressure kids into feeling like they have to fit in via transitioning. No one? I had one question but now I've answered it myself. Thank you.

wecant

I don’t see any value in risking this thread being deleted by speculating on personal attributes or motives.

If there's any gaslighting here it lies in the argument made by Frack that what's been done to Jazz Jennings is so triggering and upsetting that it can't even be discussed, but somehow at the same time doing it not only to Jazz but to many other children is not only fine but a good and positive thing.

I don't think Frack's identity is really relevant; I'd prefer to stick to discussing the assertions made.

From what Frack's other post said I was expecting to read a lot of personal stuff about Jazz (which I have posted before makes me uncomfortable) but there is nothing of the sort; only relevant factual posts.