Frack's reference post

[FrackOff]

Hi All
I have been asked in various threads for references. I am starting a new thread as I've lost track of all the conversations. I wasn't going to bother as people usually don't want to read them but since one or two have said they really do want to read them with an open mind, here are a few.

Reidar Schei Jessen & Katrina Roen (2019) Balancing in the margins
of gender: exploring psychologists’ meaning-making in their work with gender non- conforming youth seeking puberty suppression, Psychology & Sexuality, 10:2, 119-131, DOI: 10.1080/19419899.2019.1568290

ABSTRACT
The past 15 years have seen the growth of puberty suppression as the prevailing approach to supporting gender non-conforming children and youth. Puberty suppression is considered to provide time for weighing up the pros and cons of medical transition. Research based on binary under- standings of gender has demonstrated that a carefully selected group of gender non-conforming youth benefit from physical treatment and gender transition, but the research that details how psychologists can best support young people during this time is limited. This is the gap addressed by the current research. The purpose of the present study is to explore the meaning-making framework within which some clinical psychologists and gender non-conforming youth approach discussions of puberty suppression. Five semi-structured interviews were conducted with clinical psychologists working with gender non-conforming youth. The data were analysed using thematic analysis. The results indicate that there is pressure on gender non- conforming youth, often coming from families, friends and mass media, to buy into heteronormative and binary discourses regarding gender and what constitutes a good life. The results also indicate that the participants deploy affirmative and exploratory therapeutic strategies in their work, in order to enable gender non-conforming youth to make informed decisions regarding puberty suppression. Participants emphasized the importance of therapeutic approaches that explore non-binary gender discourses, alongside the use of puberty suppression and other medical interventions that enable clients to fit more with gender norms. The therapeutic balance between affirmation and exploration may shed light on how both research within the binary tradition and critics of binary assumptions are in danger of oversimplifying the process of gender identity development. This research highlights the importance of understanding the complex negotiation of gender discourses that are in tension with one another.

Julia Long's description of a young woman's double mascectomy on TV's Transformation Street is really powerful (5 mins in). This whole video is powerful, so if you haven't seen it yet, I'd recommend watching.

"25 minutes into the programme we see the surgeon cutting into the tissue of a healthy young woman who believes herself to be a man.

"We see her surgically reduced nipple being placed to one side, so it can be stitched back on later on. And we hear the soft slap of a sliced off breast as it drops into a kidney bowl..."

That description haunts me. As it should most of us.

I hope this thread stays because it is such an instructive example of the lines that discussion around this issue takes. Particularly, and shockingly, in academia it would appear.

Sorry, mastectomy.. bloody phone/eyes...

@FrackOff I'm happy to have shared something some might find helpful

I find it exceedingly helpful, Flack. Thank you for posting. I have learnt a lot from what you are posting.

1] You don't have an opinion beyond what you think these articles are saying and if you do [have an opinion], you refuse to share it, which really only leave others to make up their mind about you
2] You cannot debate a reasonable point
3] You refuse to answer a reasonable question
4] You are contradictory
5] I cannot trust what you say
6] When I feel the need to answer a point that you make, I don't have to, because several others do it for me, and probably better
7] You are arrogant

It's interesting to see the reactions of some when confronted with the truth.

This is why there was such an outcry of supporters of surgery on children when detransitioner Charlie set up the Detransition Advocacy Network
in order to help the hundreds of young individuals she says have reached out to her after experiencing regret after undergoing hormonal treatements and surgical procedures.

www.lifesitenews.com/news/ex-transgender-starts-detransitioning-advocacy-group-i-felt-i-had-to-do-something

Sadly, the true extent of the irreversible damage for so many children will be uncovered over many years.

I'm going to say that I dont have any problem with small questionnaire studies. If only because I'm about to do one myself... Lisa Littman's paper describing ROGD was a small, limited questionnaire study. It was still useful.

These studies can be part of the picture, but they absolutely should not be used to say that we genuinely know what the long term objective outcomes of any of the current treatments are.

It's very difficult to compare outcomes across different health systems, too. Say a review of outcomes in a system that gives children decent access to timely psychological support, for example, as opposed to the bleeding remnants which seem to be all that's currently left of CAMHS in the UK. It is very hard to look at the proportion of UK presenters at GIDS who are presenting as sex dysphoric when they're actually somatising other forms of distress into a currently prominent form, if none of the pre screening by CAMHS that those who set up the GIDS assumed would be happening is practically available.

I can only assume Frack has left the thread because it has not turned out how Frack intended - and is in fact an excellent analysis of how children are being experimented on in the name of gender identity ideology.

I will also assume that Frack has made a big fuss about finding talk of Jazz Jennings "triggering" will be used in an effort to get this most informative thread removed from Mumsnet. Let's hope MNHQ don't fall for it.

theflushedzebra
I had the same idea & really hope it doesn't happen.

It is very hard to look at the proportion of UK presenters at GIDS who are presenting as sex dysphoric when they're actually somatising other forms of distress into a currently prominent form, if none of the pre screening by CAMHS that those who set up the GIDS assumed would be happening is practically available.

Absolutely this

@NotBadConsidering says they are only prepared to refer to Jazz Jennings‘ medicalisation and surgery in purely factual terms, not in flowery euphemisms that are designed to deliberately mask the real-terms outcome of JJ’s treatment, and OP’s direct response is...

I am going to have to leave the thread then

Just....what?? How mad is this?

This is someone claiming to be from an academic background, someone who has brought what they consider to be quality evidence to the table in order to have a meaningful debate, and yet they aren’t prepared to actually have a factual discussion because the reality of what has been done to JJ - the reality that OP is actively attempting to promote - is just too horrifying and triggering to discuss.

This thread is such a clear example of the wider debate. I sincerely hope it stays as a reference point for people who are new to the topic.

Julia Long's description of a young woman's double mascectomy on TV's Transformation Street is really powerful (5 mins in). This whole video is powerful, so if you haven't seen it yet, I'd recommend watching.

I was there (a Haringey ReSisters event) and the speech was even more powerful in person.

Frack will have fainted in horror if she's still reading. Did you know this is currently happening to young women and their breasts Frack?

You don't see much therapy as politics in this neck of the woods, but Frack is giving us a good demonstration of it on this thread.

"Responding from a place of trauma" for goodness sake. I guess as men aren't traumatised by male oppression, we should just leave all the discussions up to them as their troublesome emotions won't be getting in the way.

Frack, all women are traumatised in the patriarchy unless they are very, very lucky. That doesn't detract from our ability to analyse and discuss what men do to us and how we're going to stop them.

This is another weakness in liberal feminist analysis - the harmful things that men do to us are bad because they traumatise us. PTSD is the top complaint. They do traumatise and that is bad, but the political point (feminist point) is that they oppress us. They remove our freedom, which is the purpose. Of course Alison Phipps has already said that we white women shouldn't make politics out of our pain/trauma, we should ignore our political circumstances and instead visit a therapist I guess, so we can stop responding from places of trauma. I don't think it's going to work Frack. Men are just going to keep at it.

Frack has moved on.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3739688-AIBU-to-expect-not-to-be-gaslighted-in-Feminist-Chat

This thread is why FWR is so important.

I can't be bothered with thread about a thread chasing. Frac is probably going to do what lots of other people do in her situation, search out people who will constantly affirm that they are right.

No doubt we have all tried it when we've been cut down to size, I know I have.

She'll get a warm reception in AIBU.

I hope there's the opportunity to vote. Such a great new feature.

Frack has moved on.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

The robust academic mind at work.

Triggered by mention of the very thing she started a thread to advocate for - my fat arse and saggy tits.

Sorry. Serious and important thread. But honestly!

Frack's AIBU thread has gone (TAAT).

Bums. Deleted for the dread offence of TAATism. I missed out.

Shame. I was quite enjoying it. As with so many such threads, I don't think it was going quite the way she'd hoped it would.

If I left the room every time I felt a trauma response in regard to this issue, I'd never be in the room.

Which is where people like Frack would like parents like me and other ROGD mums here in FWR. Out of the conversation. Shamed into silence and compliance with a treatment model that is openly homophobic, and which lacks a robust evidence base.

As another lovely mum said to me, holding to the truth is a comfort. Maybe that's why I don't have to leave the room.

A grave misunderstanding of the concept of 'gaslighting' in that TAAT (I have a copy of what she asserted, btw).

I didn't read it but you can guess how it went:

"Why did you do that"
"Taat are not allowed""That was achildish thing to do"
"omg I agree the moms in feminist chat are like sooo anti-trans."
"Dfod"
"Why did you do that"
"Taat are not allowed"

As another lovely mum said to me, holding to the truth is a comfort. Maybe that's why I don't have to leave the room.

That and the fact that your love for your child (which comes through in all your posts, Janes, makes you brave because you have to be. You come across has having ovaries of steel, and I admire you. It would be easier for you to leave the room, but you know you can't, not if you want to protect your child and others in the same situation.