Frack's reference post

[FrackOff]

Hi All
I have been asked in various threads for references. I am starting a new thread as I've lost track of all the conversations. I wasn't going to bother as people usually don't want to read them but since one or two have said they really do want to read them with an open mind, here are a few.

Reidar Schei Jessen & Katrina Roen (2019) Balancing in the margins
of gender: exploring psychologists’ meaning-making in their work with gender non- conforming youth seeking puberty suppression, Psychology & Sexuality, 10:2, 119-131, DOI: 10.1080/19419899.2019.1568290

ABSTRACT
The past 15 years have seen the growth of puberty suppression as the prevailing approach to supporting gender non-conforming children and youth. Puberty suppression is considered to provide time for weighing up the pros and cons of medical transition. Research based on binary under- standings of gender has demonstrated that a carefully selected group of gender non-conforming youth benefit from physical treatment and gender transition, but the research that details how psychologists can best support young people during this time is limited. This is the gap addressed by the current research. The purpose of the present study is to explore the meaning-making framework within which some clinical psychologists and gender non-conforming youth approach discussions of puberty suppression. Five semi-structured interviews were conducted with clinical psychologists working with gender non-conforming youth. The data were analysed using thematic analysis. The results indicate that there is pressure on gender non- conforming youth, often coming from families, friends and mass media, to buy into heteronormative and binary discourses regarding gender and what constitutes a good life. The results also indicate that the participants deploy affirmative and exploratory therapeutic strategies in their work, in order to enable gender non-conforming youth to make informed decisions regarding puberty suppression. Participants emphasized the importance of therapeutic approaches that explore non-binary gender discourses, alongside the use of puberty suppression and other medical interventions that enable clients to fit more with gender norms. The therapeutic balance between affirmation and exploration may shed light on how both research within the binary tradition and critics of binary assumptions are in danger of oversimplifying the process of gender identity development. This research highlights the importance of understanding the complex negotiation of gender discourses that are in tension with one another.

I got my speculative posts deleted, much to my regret, because I thought I was being very clever. But this thread is more important than diversionary detective work.

Frack claimed on her newest thread that the young person in question was being discussed in sensational tabloidese or similar. I don't think that's what happened.

I'm pretty sure that the Mumsnet hive mind could figure out who Frack is if it wanted to, and some probably have. To go from that to publicly posting Frack's identity would be unacceptable (we don't do that, that's the other side) and also poor strategy (the fact that we don't do that and the other side does reflects well on us and badly on them).

Who ever suggested posting Frack's personal identity?

Again, unless your goal is to get this thread deleted I would suggest that you stop.

Stop what? No one has suggested posting Frack's personal identity.

Have they? So what are you suggesting is stopped?

I'm suggesting that you stop speculating about Frack's identity at all, including Frack's sex, because Frack is clearly trying to build a case for having been persecuted on MN and doing so will assist Frack in building that case.

I'm guessing that Frack would probably like to see this thread deleted because having your arse publicly handed to you on a plate is a bit embarrassing. Let's not let that happen.

Back on topic, regarding Frack’s opening post, and the analysis of that article about how homophobia is driving it, here’s a reminder of ex Tavistock workers reporting exactly the same thing:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/it-feels-like-conversion-therapy-for-gay-children-say-clinicians-pvsckdvq2?shareToken=2b9dee211a059c8b14a3858baf80db5c

It's been weird and fascinating to see TRA arguments evolve from broadly pro Tavistock to anti as soon as they encountered some resistance. The Tavistock isn't anti trans, obviously, they just want to maintain some sort of filtering process so they aren't assuming every single kid coming through their doors needs to be transitioned. Apparently that's not allowed.

Frack claimed on her newest thread that the young person in question was being discussed in sensational tabloidese or similar.

It's Jazz Jennings' family who have turned Jazz Jennings' transition into a reality TV show. Not Mumsnetters.

I'm sure there are many TRAs who want the discussion around jazz to be shut down. Jazz is the living proof of everything they advocate for. All of it. And yet, they still can't justify it and need it made taboo.

Extraordinary.

I don't see.any gaslighting on this thread. I think it's important we are clear on what it means, because for some women understanding and being able to spot gaslighting could save their lives.

It's not a bunch of people on an internet forum being rude to you. It's someone deliberately destabilising you by lying and contradictions. It's quite a specific thing. It's a living hell for anyone who has been through it.

I've been attacked by groups on the internet, it can be very upsetting and I do feel for Frack if she's hurting.

It is NOT from gaslighting. Manipulating ideas like that to try to make yourself feel better is in itself more akin to the emotional manipulation and dishonesty of abuse.

Check the freedom programme if these issues affect you.

Frack, I genuinely appreciate your input. I still have not had a chance to read the links but will do so next week. While I am worried and confused about the approach to treatment of children, were i to read convincing evidence that I was wrong I would reassess. I am not invested in my argument except in that I want the best possible outcome for those involved.

So far I've not found coherent arguments from the TRA camp; I'd welcome one to assess and engage with.

Hi all, and thanks for your patience.

This thread was taken down over the weekend but we're reinstating it now, having deleted a number of troll hunting posts and also having suspended a poster who seemed intent on causing trouble. As several posters on the thread pointed out, we don't allow posts that attempt to identify Mumsnetters in real life. Please report if you see anything like that and we will deal with it immediately.

Thank you JoanneMumsnet and MNHQ. This was absolutely the right decision

Good move MNHQ

thank you

Thank you JoanneMumsnet.

Thank you JoanneMumsnet

Thank you Joanne

Isn't it weird how it always seems to happen over the weekends....

Thank you, Joanne.

Since this is not a one-off incident and also seems more common at weekends, can I ask again for some substantive feedback on the current thread running about the application of the guidelines?

Can I also point out that the message left by the mod team was that the thread had been fully deleted and the clear intention was not some time to look behind the scenes?

It would be nice if we got a frank acknowledgement that something went very wrong here and it wasn't the fault of your users.

(I will shut up now.)

It would be nice if we got a frank acknowledgement that something went very wrong here and it wasn't the fault of your users.

That'll never happen because it will mean having to really hold the weekend people to account.

Excellent JoanneMumsnet. Thank you.

And I agree with Lang. Can the weekend moderators be brought up to speed over this kind of sabotaging strategy?

It's needlessly stressful for both the posters here, and the moderating team that have trawl through it all on a Monday.

That's good news, JoanneMumsnet. Thank you.

Thanks JoanneMumsnet