It’s official; Marks and Spencer have fallen, the sequel.......

[MrsSnippyPants]

First thread getting full and and I continue to be interested in responses received to people’s emails and store visits.

Thanks Fekko
Need some Sunday funnies today. With this and the Private Eye satire I'm feeling amused.

Just emailed Debenhams this. Their email is: head.office@?ontactdebenhams.com for anyone else who wants to email.
Hi, I’m considering on visiting my local Debenhams soon and just wanted to clarify the changing room situation after a tweet has been shared.

The tweet stated you welcome all customers to your stores, but males who present themselves as women are permitted into the women’s changing room. I would like to answers to these questions:
1. Are all changing rooms completely sealed from top to bottom? With locks?
2. Are cameras routinely checked for? This as an increasing genre of porn since mixed sex facilities are on the rise. If so, how often is routinely?
3. What provisions do you have in place for women and Muslims, who come under all customers, who do not or cannot share these facilities with males? Are these spaces just available for Muslims/other religious beliefs or can any woman request access to these provisions?
4. How many members of staff are present at all times and what training have they received?
5. What are your official safeguarding measures and guidelines in regards to inappropriate behaviour?

Thank you,

Sorry that should be a C not a question mark in email. My phone screen is cracked so couldn't see. Their email is on their website

Fekko could women with buggies and toddlers fit in the cubicles ?

Responding to the replies about my above post/experience yesterday (sorry -rushing out so can't return to the thread until later) -

The man did look uncomfortable with me and/or DD being in the same fitting room. However, he was getting the benefit of the mixed sex environment by having his wife there to assist him. I thought it would have been hypocritical for him to moan about it. He wasn't to know really if it was me or DD getting dressed in the cubicle a few doors down from him.

Neither me or DD felt we were at risk. The doors were lockable and it was a public space. If he happened to be a predator and wanted to attack us at that moment, he would have had to kick the door in with some amount of force which would have attracted attention from staff. For us, we didn't feel vulnerable. My DD knew to lock the door behind me every time I left to get her different sizes etc. If I didn't think she was capable of doing that, I wouldn't have left her alone at any point. However, she's old enough to know to do this.

Yesterday, I only saw good sides of the mixed sex fitting rooms.

The man - he got to have his wife there to assist him.
Me and DD - we didn't need to spend time looking for the 'correct' changing room; this one was right next to the kids' section (between the kids' section and men's) so was easy to go get different sizes etc.

The man did look uncomfortable but I'm not sure why. It could have been any number of reasons. Maybe he just felt self-conscious talking about his size, what fit and what didn't in earshot of strangers? Without asking him, we'll not know. If it was because he was in a separate locked cubicle from my DD (who was also in a locked cubicle) in a public space, I would be interested in hearing why. In my opinion, it was less risky for them both than them being out on the shop floor side by side in the queue, for example.

In terms of lingerie, I would feel uncomfortable (as would DD) talking about my breasts in earshot of men. DD would feel mortified discussing this in front of anyone regardless of sex! I would prefer there to be a single room with a lockable door with no gaps to prevent people from hearing our conversation. It would be more for embarrassment sake than safety, though.

The point for me is that M and S need to inform their customers what is the situation. Most women dont realise and it is not fair for them to suddenly find themselves in a mixed sex situation without prior warning. It would make me very unsettled and upset. I can see why man was not too happy with you Tie. And I think the quality of M and S provision probably varies round the country so that I am sure there are many changing rooms not suitable for mixed sex changing.

And now I want to know what Next's position is on this. I can not find out any information from searching online. Anyone?

Of course it has nothing to do with discussing his size, he wouldn't of minded had it been a male. A bit hypercritical to have his wife there granted, I can see where he was coming from as comfortable with them but hypocritical regardless.

My DD knew to lock the door behind me every time I left to get her different sizes etc. If I didn't think she was capable of doing that, I wouldn't have left her alone at any point. However, she's old enough to know to do this.

Why would she need to lock the door?

Would you feel the same need to lock the door if it was strictly female only?

Do Debenhams direct women in men’s clothing and short hair to the men’s?

Would a male in women’s clothing wanting to try on women’s clothing be directed to the women’s if they tried to use the men’s?

Surely their policy is not allowed under the Equalities Act.

TieYourTie

So your story tells us that all three people you engaged with verbally and non verbally objected to your daughters presence inside a cubicle designated for men.

You can only see the good side of what you did though, as it was more convenient for you to impose your choices on others?

@PaleBlueMoonlight email them to ask.

Would also be interesting to hear their official definition of how one 'presents" themselves as a man or woman.

This is crying out for a new advertising campaign;

"Mixed sex changing rooms; because we don't just take legal advice, we take STONEWALL legal advice"........

Still not sure how staff will ever be able to police single-sex facilities with a third option . Challenging appearance could go badly wrong for the staff, plus you can't tell whether someone is male-bodied whatever they wear. Are people saying surgery (I'd not posing a physical threat) is the key issue here? Trouble is (unless I've got this wrong) we are relying on men to play fair and go to a third space if they are XY... But the nature of transition is dogged belief in your new 'identity'. We can't rely on them, so it needs policing, but I don't see how that is ever possible. Can we really expect staff to challenge people and ask them to use the third space however obvious their actual sex?

"The man did look uncomfortable but I'm not sure why"

Because you shouldn't have been in there. There's a big difference between wives helping their husbands in a men's changing room, and a young girl being taken into the men's changing rooms by her mother to get undressed when there are men around.

It turned out there was a changing room suitable for your daughter to use, you just couldn't be bothered to look for it. You'd rather make other people uncomfortable.

Sorry i.e. not I'd

"These aren't just perverts... These are M&S perverts. And we just want them to feel comfortable!"

Hmm, on a different note I live so far from a branch of M&S that I only use their mail order - kids school shoes, my bras and undies. I obviously order many many different sizes (kids shoes ffs) and get free delivery. I then return the non-fitters, and get free return postage. I very much doubt they make much profit from me at all after all the handling and shipping is taken into account, is this really the business model they want to see increase?

ps with a dd approaching puberty like a runaway train where do I take her when I can't put it off any longer? It's bad enough all the 10yo boys wandering around in the (no - not 'unisex', actual women's) changing rooms after swimming lessons and having to do the big-towel shuffle.

TieYourTie

So there are times your dd would prefer single sex space?

I've yet to go into an M and S with only two changing rooms, so there is nothing wrong with having mens, womens and unisex.

"For us, we didn't feel vulnerable."

Well bully for you. You went into the men's changing rooms, where non-predatory men will go. This thread is about the women's changing rooms where only men with predatory intentions would want to go. Of course you didn't feel vulnerable.

I hope that guy complains to M&S officially too.

This is the reply I got when I queried the original statement they put out.

Then my response just now. The link is to the link of the man exposing himself in M & S.

Can we really expect staff to challenge people and ask them to use the third space however obvious their actual sex?

And this is where we are right now. People (generally not specific) are making the daft assumption that you can't tell someone's sex, and if you can it's offensive.

It needs to become publicly unacceptable for men to demand access to female changing rooms. So that women are not put in the position of standing there, having a slanging match with a man who insists he's a woman.

Agree. And it is obvious... Maybe they need to install facial recognition software at the entrance to Lingerie..! (See. other thread on this )...

Thank you to howonearthdidwegethere for providing the link to the WPUK template email. I've sent it, suitably amended, and I'm ready with my next salvo. We spend a fair bit at M&S annually and I've pointed that out.

M&S can send out as many standard bog-off responses as it wants but eventually, the volume has to percolate through. As PPs have pointed out, the clothing side of the business has been struggling for years. Woke points do not translate into healthy profits, especially as it is still women who do the majority of clothes shopping, either for or with the family.

Pity the AGM isn't until July. M&S shareholders have previous for making their views crystal clear about company policy and direction.