It’s official; Marks and Spencer have fallen, the sequel.......

[MrsSnippyPants]

First thread getting full and and I continue to be interested in responses received to people’s emails and store visits.

I've emailed. I asked what safeguarding they have put in place, particularly considering the huge increase of voyeur porn online now and the ease of buying and fitting cameras. I've also made it clear that I will be taking my custom elsewhere if their reply is unsatisfactory. Which is a pain in the arse as MIL expects her lunch to be from M&S at Christmas and I'll have a full year of complaints about it.

In the previous thread someone asked where to go for a bra.

I live on the continent but my family lives in London. My DD needed a bra fitted, which is why I took her to Rigby & Peller’s when we were there. You have to make an appointment. The sales assistant made my painfully body-conscious teen feel very comfortable and got her the bra she needed and wanted. I had called ahead to warn them that she was going through a particularly difficult period.
There is no obligation to buy if you book a fitting.
Since then I’ve taken three other family members there and all three were wearing the wrong size. As one put it: I walked in with a unaboob and came out with two breasts, feeling ten tons lighter.
As my dd was only 14 at the time, I was required to be in there with her. The changing room was sufficiently large to fit all three of us.

My recommendation would be to find a lingerie shop near you. I like to support local, small shops where possible. And at the risk of sounding defeatist and as the mother of a very woke daughter, I don’t know where this will end but I know that she and I stand at very opposite ends of the spectrum on this subject to the extent that we have now agreed to no longer discuss it in this household.

Where I live changing rooms in most shops are mixed in the sense that there are always men or boyfriends hanging around waiting for their spouse/girlfriend. But they usually sit in the centre of the changing room on ottomans or benches.

I spotted one transgender person in H&M recently. They caught my attention because their outfit was rather garish and they were really flouncing around to be honest. People’s reactions were mixed.

I have a feeling that the women of the very mixed religious demographic in our city shop online to avoid changing rooms. I hardly ever see them in the changing rooms at Zara for example.

We also have women’s swimming hour in public pools.

I’ve already found some brilliant alternatives to products and services of companies who are choosing to push women aside and ignore them.

Keep looking and recommend to your friends!

Wanted to just add: what I don’t understand is how this works for the women who work at M&S.

I can’t see how a Muslim woman working in lingerie would handle this for example. Is she exempted in that case if a transgender person would request a fitting? I know that Muslim and Jewish women may not share a swimming pool or public bath with men and other rules apply.

As I have said before in the previous thread, I do not think that changing rooms usually are labelled. We all know which sex they are for by the shop or department they are in or, where that is not clear, because the attendant directs you the right way. Sometimes, especially in smaller stores, they are unisex. The lack of signs does not mean that changing rooms are single sex. We all know, through a mix of common sense and convention, which changing rooms are for which sex.

However, this system relies on a basic societal premise that changing facilities are single sex and we therefore will find the appropriate facilities for our sex. It is this basic societal level understanding of what is appropriate which some activists are seeking to break down, whether with good intentions or otherwise.

I think there may be merit in considering whether stores should provide changing facilities for individuals wanting to try on clothes intended for the opposite sex where facilities for their own sex are not provided (in, say, a women’s clothes store with no men’s department), but that must be a tiny number so perhaps reasonable to expect them to take the clothes home to try on if a separate cubicle cannot easily be provided.

Hmmm ...

I was going to start my own thread but I think it's more relevant to post here?

I was in M and S yesterday picking up some outfits for tween DD. Very near store closing time and no staff on the floor I could see. Could only see one fitting room which was next to the men's suit section. I jumped in with DD. All cubicles with locks with walls from the floor going up high - but not touching the ceiling.

This was not labelled a fitting room for any particular sex but it was very clearly intended for men as there were only men clothes on the 'return rail' thingy as you walked in next to the desk. There was a man and his wife in there (wife sitting outside the cubicle, running backwards and forwards with different shirts). The wife stopped me and DD as we walked in and said something along the lines of, "Oops, this is the men's changing room." I explained we were in a hurry and couldn't find the children's fitting room and the other one was all the way downstairs. She didn't say anything else at that time but I could hear her and her husband mumbling a bit about it. From the man's expression (he came out every now and then to show his wife his shirts), he did look quite uncomfortable with me and DD being there (though his wife was sitting outside too! I stayed mostly in the cubicle with DD but occasionally went in and out to get different sizes). DD really didn't care at all as long as the door shut and was locked (she hates fitting rooms with curtains regardless of whether or not they're female only).

When it got to paying, the woman had obviously said something to the shop assistant as she told me where the children's fitting room was 'next time I visited'. I explained that we were in a hurry as it was near closing time and I hadn't been able to find any staff at the time to ask so it just made sense to go in the nearest fitting room.

Now, I actually preferred the fact I could go in the first fitting room I could find. I also liked the fact that the husband's wife felt able to sit outside his cubicle to help him out with getting different sizes etc. We felt safe as the door locked and he walls were very high. My experience yesterday completely changed my outlook on mixed sex fitting rooms. I only saw the benefits of them yesterday. It was much quicker and easier than finding one meant for a particular sex or age.

If cubicles can be locked and there aren't large gaps in the walls, I would actually prefer fitting rooms to be mixed sex. I think though there may be some inconsistency with the staffs' thoughts towards the fitting rooms such as the lady yesterday trying to direct me to the much further away children's fitting room.

I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to post my experience but I thought it might be ?interesting? to hear of a gender critical person's thoughts of the benefits of mixed sex (and age!) fitting rooms.

I later asked DD if she would have still felt as at ease if I hadn't been there with her. She said yes as long as there was a high door with a lock. Whenever it's a curtain, she always makes me stands outside to hold the curtain in place even when it's female only fitting rooms.

Well according to Twitter debenhams is out now too. Free to use the changing rooms that align with how you present.

So we need to.complile a list.

Where can we take our dds to be fitted by women and around women...

Shame.debenhams do good bras

We need to start using the relevant rooms then don’t we.

Considering I spend most of my time schlepping about in jeans, unisex converse, DS cast off jumpers... I can go wherever I feel then.

@SarahTancredi Can you please share the Debenhams post? I'm not on twitter. Either on this thread or a maybe a new one as this is M&S. I'll send them an email today as well.

Tieyourtie
It appears he felt very uncomfortable about you leaving your daughter alone, especially a as your dd is a female child in what he considered it a male space. He doesn’t know your dd at all and he may have felt very fearful about possible repercussions and accusations. You also took the risk to leave your dd alone in what is considered the male changing rooms. I know this thread is about women but I’m looking at it from the other side too.

As your dd is still a child, idk if she was capable of making an informed decision on her safety. She could only judge from the current set of circumstances and from the trust that she put in you, her mother.

I’m all for women to take a bunch of bras and knickers and heading for the men’s to make a point. I don’t agree you should have left your dd alone in those circumstances.

The thing is though Tie, just because some women aren't bothered, doesn't mean that all women shouldn't be either. It sounds like your dd was trying on ordinary clothes too, there's something more vulnerable about having your bra off, and discussing it with a stranger. And the men in the men's changing area weren't pushing any comfort boundaries, they were where you expected them to be, whereas a man who has decided to enter the bra- fitting changing rooms is already arguably acting inappropriately

just

Look at it the other way too - Men do not want to be in enclosed or confined spaces with other people’s children especially little girls.

Men are wary of being labelled as peeping toms, creeps etc, that’s the way the world is these days. Just watch a stranger interact with a child who isn’t known to them - men are very stand back.

So no - girls in the men’s room? I’ve pointed this out the men regarding mixed sex loos (where there are urinals) and the response is ‘hell no!’

So people should go to m&s grab stacks of clothing ask for the ladies changing room specify ladies or women a lot when they are told they are inclusive hand over the items with a no thanks our local m&s is curtains on rings that dont even close properly what the fuck are they thinking

Wanted to just add: what I don’t understand is how this works for the women who work at M&S.

This is one question I asked in my email. I asked if women, that is female as determined at conception and observed at birth, staff were able to pass male, as determined at conception and observed at birth, customers over to male staff if they made them feel uncomfortable, with particular reference to bra fittings. I won't give money to companies that sexually abuse their female staff.

I wouldn’t want to encourage people to be rude to the staff - so be polite, firm and clear (and loud enough to be heard by other users).

The one near me does have a lot of shoppers from ME and also Jewish women. Not exactly groups you’d imagine would be especially happy with all this.

"Now, I actually preferred the fact I could go in the first fitting room I could find."

What about how the man felt about you and your DD being in the men's changing rooms. You said he was obviously uncomfortable. Or do his views not matter?

I don't suppose the shop assistant was that happy to have to deal with the customer's complaint either.

slippery can you get a photo of the curtains? M&S keep trotting out the line that all their changing rooms are lockable cubicles, if you can prove otherwise it is worth putting that on twitter or emailing to the chairman.

So people should go to m&s grab stacks of clothing ask for the ladies changing room specify ladies or women a lot when they are told they are inclusive hand over the items with a no thanks our local m&s is curtains on rings that dont even close properly what the fuck are they thinking

That makes extra work for the shop assistants who won't have anything to do with this policy. Taking stuff back and asking to explain to the manager why is likely to be more effective.

Mumfun
Have M & S shares in my pension plan. Have written to investor relations saying that if they don't change their policy I will be selling them
Great idea.
If I had M&S shares, I would sell them.

The one I was in on Friday (well on my travels!) had a curtain on the disabled one which I first thought was for access but then someone pointed out the at disables loos have the large bar handle, so the curtain is a ‘cheap fix’ I guess.

And the booth ones didn’t go to the ceiling. Even I could peer over if I felt the urge (which I wouldn’t).

Do the armfuls of stuff thing but then ask to speak to the manager and dump it all on them?

I’m just going to post this again because it amuses me... (2 separate branches of Zara so not a typo...)

Yes those are funny words in a funny sequence in a not so funny place

This is where we are, that it is this that makes us chuckle.