It’s official; Marks and Spencer have fallen, the sequel.......

[MrsSnippyPants]

First thread getting full and and I continue to be interested in responses received to people’s emails and store visits.

Given the silence on twitter replies they have obvious been told not to engage on this subject at all. But add anything else and will respond straight away.

Not sure what’s worse. Ignoring totally or cut b paste the inclusive line and ignoring concerns.

Thank you timelady for posting that m&s twitter thread. The comments are awesome. I do not understand why they are ignoring us. Do they think we will just give up if they keep with the men in the ladies changing room crap? Slink back in saying sorry we made a fuss??? Well I don't believe that will happen and my hope is that the hit to their Christmas sales will force them to respect their core customers and return to single sex changing rooms.

I do not understand why they are ignoring us

Because public opinion doesn't matter when things are imposed from the top downward, like this.

Was it their Christmas window that was really sexist last year?
Lingerie for women, suits for men and in Dublin too, where that poor young woman had been subjected to having her choice of underwear questioned in court.

Someone mentioned insurance and safeguarding.
I spoke to the insurers of GLL in the summer and was told they're only interested in the nuts and bolts so to speak.
I made them aware that no risk assessment had been done regarding mixed changing rooms, as shocked as the man was, he said it's just not in the insurance remit.
I don't know if this would be different for clothes shops.

Regarding John Lewis, I'm not convinced they adhere to a single sex policy, they were incredibly evasive with me, emails sent, numerous phone calls etc. I had an unexpected operation in the summer, so it fell by the wayside while I was poorly.
I do know for a fact that they allow self identifying males into the female staff locker rooms though.
Have they given anyone a definitive answer?

Regarding other clothes shops, they are getting off very lightly compared to Marks, particularly considering teenage girls are the core customers, why is this?
I'm so pleased Marks are being held to account, but so should all the other shops.

I'm interested about why there's such a furore about M+S when there hasn't been about the other shops.

I suspect it's because the target market for M+S is older women - and we Get More Radical As We Age.

I suppose because they have gone on social media to trumpet their stance. Others have slipped it under the radar - but are being looked at more closely now.

viv
Might also be because it's one of the few places where you woyod go for things like bra fitting.

How woke you are I dont think that goes down well with even the beardy blokes if they are their with their daughters

I'm just trying to get my wee brain around this... there's a story in the paper doing the rounds now of a 19 year old person born a girl, going down the medical route to a become a boy (after a dubious comment from an ex-girlfriends parent about 'if you want to go out with girls why not become a guy', so nothing homophobic about this at all).

So where would they go for a bra fitting (whilst they still needed one)? Wouldnt they feel comfier in the men's changing room - but what about the staff there - may be the bra fitter wouldn't want to go in the men's changing room?

They should create a third space but they won't.

They also have an Instagram page.

www.instagram.com/marksandspencer/

The problem with a third space though is that if you passionately believe you are (or get your rocks off on pretending to be) a woman and you also really think you pass, going into the third space allows others to see you as not a woman. And you might be in that space with other not-women. And that simply cannot be allowed. Because TWAW and the world must comply with that view without compromise. Unless it’s actual women of course, they can all fuck off.

I wonder if my comment will get deleted but I think it would also be a good place to start.

Whilst there will be some for whom a third space is not acceptable, there are others who it would help. I would not want to avoid helping some people just because others will still complain. When the issue was raised, management managed to create a unixsex loo at our work and everyone was happy afaik.

Not sure this really helps "Importantly, a service provider’s starting point should be to treat a trans person in the
gender they identify with, and to allow them to access services for that gender unless by doing so they
would be unable to provide that service to other service users. This means it can’t be a blanket ban,
or done on a whim. It has to be for a real reason, on a case by case basis. " Found here when looking for something else assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/721642/GEO-LGBT-factsheet.pdf.
Also not sure I believe 1 in 132 people in the UK do not feel comfortable living as the gender that they were born with and take serious, life-changing steps to change their gender permanently.

I'm interested about why there's such a furore about M+S when there hasn't been about the other shops

I suspect it's because the target market for M+S is older women - and we Get More Radical As We Age

I think it's because they've always had a nice, safe, respectable and traditional image. It makes it feel even more of a betrayal.
I'm in my early 20s so probably not their target for clothes, though I do sometimes buy underwear there and I'm wearing a lovely warm bright red M&S dressing gown right now!
What I do often buy from them though, is skincare, perfume, sometimes haircare, and occasionally Home stuff.
Also food, though not all the time as it's so expensive.

I'm gutted I have to boycott them, but I'm excellent at holding grudges so I won't weaken!

My mum was the queen of boycotts. I never really ‘got’ why she would refuse to her dying day to part cash with a business, brand or company who had crossed her.

Now I do!

They're making themselves look even worse by instantly replying to anyone who says "Great ad!" or "I love your jumpers!" and totally ignoring the multitude of changing room comments

I boycotted International Stores from when I was a child because of their 2 school children only policy. It was a bit of a pain when I was at University as a branch was the nearest convenience store. They closed in 1994. I doubt my boycott had much to do with that.

In a lot of workplaces grown-ups get on with the job and leave your 'whole self' out of it. In many roles your personal life and self-actualisation is left at the door so you can focus on the task or person on hand, such as teaching and caring roles. It's pandering to self-absorption and the rising tide of narcissism.

It's another key flaw in the One True Faith.

It can't apply to everyone. It always has to divide society into the grown ups/providers / nurturers and those who are nurtured/provided for. Because if everyone wandered around in this state of self absorption there would be no one to service it. This is part of the ongoing state of rage of the TRA political lobby. Women are classed as those who will mummy/provide for/nurture/unconditionally self sacrifice and run around in circles for the more important and vulnerable.

Take a look, it's there constantly. There's the servant class who'd better do as they're bloody well told or else in nurturing the served properly and the served who owe no reciprocation or anything ever, but are entitled merely by the virtue of breathing out. Or in other terms: the emotionally mature and the ginormous toddlers.

I'm excellent at holding grudges so I won't weaken.

Why is a third space not good enough? The women who didn’t mind as expressed on the Jeremy Vine show could use it. So could anyone else. Why are women forced to sacrifice?

I was at M&S at Lakeside and asked the lady on the changing room door. Went in to “try on a jumper” she said she wouldn’t let them in as girls might be trying on swimwear, hadn’t heard of the policy but had been letting in men who dressed as women for the last 13 years. I observed the changing room (very big not quite floor to ceiling - gap under the door). Lots of older women. Women coming in and out into the main area, showing friends etc. Mentioned it to two people working in store - one was a bra fitter. She was horrified. Both said they wouldn’t feel at all comfortable. The people in the store were women. A few men who looked like they wanted to be somewhere else.

I spoke at length to my mum about the subject. She seems to think I’m mental about the whole thing. That the body people suffering being in the wrong body was horrible. She felt very sorry for them. I tried to inform her that these people are such a minority. There’s a lot who just get a kick out of saying they’re a woman and removing our rights. Apparently I shouldn’t partake in another crusade (my last “crusade” was taking our ex school to court for extreme disability discrimination against my son - we won).

what if your 'whole self' is nasty and seedy and a bit creepy (albeit not criminal)? Can you bring your inner sleaze to work with you?

I have worked with people like that and thank god HR could actually wrap them across the knuckles for, oh I don't know, bragging about visiting prostitutes?

Isadora Yeah they show that they are reading all the comments but completely ignoring hundreds of comments about their changing room policy. Looks really bad indeed.

Not M & S but I wonder what is going to happen in gyms?

Changing rooms are bad enough but places where you shower as well!

Christ, that Twitter thread is quite something.

Carla many gyms already allow self identifying males into the female changing rooms.

I highlight GLL for admitting to not doing a risk assessment.

Some gyms have a centre by centre policy. Pure Gym is one.

David Lloyd couldn't have given less of a fuck when I spoke to them.

None of them inform their customers of this policy upfront and it was difficult for me to get the actual truth without flim flam and bollocks... No pun intended