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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans kids

327 replies

Macareaux · 02/11/2019 12:17

This is an interesting article in a US publication about trans kids and rapid onset gender dysphoria.

After considering many aspects of the issue and anecdotal reports and data, the writer comes to the the conclusion that the distilled problem is that there is no way of determining which children are truly trans and which are not.

If we are to progress then sooner or later these mainstream writers are going to have to have the courage to say that there is no such thing as a transgender child.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/11/andrew-sullivan-hard-questions-gender-transitions-for-young.html

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stealthsquirrelnutkin · 02/11/2019 13:46

That's a good article. It really does seem as if the silence is being broken at long last.

More news outlets are covering this monstrous situation, and ordinary people are starting to understand what has been going on behind the scenes.

The BBC and Guardian who have been complicit in the news black out do not come out of this looking good. They've destroyed trust in their impartiality that won't be easy to rebuild.

anomoony · 02/11/2019 13:49

Was just coming here to post that. It's an excellent article and even though it tries very hard to soften the message ("some kids need fast-tracked but not all") I'm sure there will be quite a backlash.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 02/11/2019 13:58

I read that earlier. I noted a response on Twitter that said The Intelligencer is a publication which is read by liberals and it might therefore cause a few people to pause and think. Let's hope so, anyway. I thought it was a good article, although clearly bending over backwards to use the right language.

nauticant · 02/11/2019 14:00

It's a call for objective and thorough research. Objective and thorough research is to trans activists as garlic is to vampires.

FrackOff · 02/11/2019 20:22

ROGD has been debunked. Rigorous research has and is being conducted.

FWRLurker · 02/11/2019 20:25

Hi frack

Please send info about any properly controlled studies of Trans kids testing affirmation only model versus the wait and see approach.

DickKerrLadies · 02/11/2019 20:28

ROGD has been debunked. Rigorous research has and is being conducted.

Looking forward to your links.

andyoldlabour · 02/11/2019 20:42

"It's a call for objective and thorough research. Objective and thorough research is to trans activists as garlic is to vampires."

I am going to remember that phrase - with crucifixes and wooden stakes - excellent.
How long before "Norms and assertions" is going to be ridiculed, and genuine scholars sit down and discuss this?

RedToothBrush · 02/11/2019 20:53

What hope do kids have when grown ups tell them they 'are in the wrong body'?

I'm currently finding it difficult as a friend is making her little boy start football because he showed an interest in dancing. And she said he shouldn't play with certain toys as they are for girls (DS has these toys as they were second hand from the family, and I'm fine with it). It's bringing back memories and troubling me. I hope it doesn't continue as I think I'm going to find it increasingly difficult.

As I've said before many times, boys are not allowed to be feminine boys. Society does not tolerate it.

Messages about wrong toys and wrong bodies from when they are 3 or 4 years old... The poor kids have no concept of how society forcing these ideas on them has no baring on their sex. They've been taught that.

Karabair · 02/11/2019 21:12

That little rhyming phrase “consistent, insistent and persistent” shows how glib and superficial this diagnosis really is. They think it makes it sound more authoritative if it rhymes, in fact it's quite the opposite. A total thought stopper.

FrackOff · 02/11/2019 21:17

I'm not posting links. I have done that in the past and people then complain I'm biased about which research I choose to post/there is too much reading/they don't have time. Do your own research. Seriously! Ask someone with a uni library account and do a literature search.

Having recently done two exhaustive lit reviews though I'm confident you won't find support for ROGD or watch'n'wait.

NotBadConsidering · 02/11/2019 21:21

I have done extensive literature searches. There is no article that exists that compares the early medical treatment of children to watching and waiting in a randomised controlled trial. There is also no evidence that “debunks” ROGD.

FrackOff · 02/11/2019 21:25

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CharlieParley · 02/11/2019 21:26

ROGD has been debunked. Rigorous research has and is being conducted.

In what way has it been debunked? In proving that these children are not in actual fact suffering from gender dysphoria (GD)? In that they are not trans? In that this is indeed social contagion?

Gender dysphoria in children has been observed and studied for more than 60 years. Until now, there have been no significant numbers of children presenting after adolescence documented in the literature* - on the contrary, puberty is the time when it resolves for most children.

ROGD is simply putting a name to the phenomenon of children presenting with atypical GD.

*I am not aware of any, but I obviously can't read all of the research as some of it is published in languages I cannot read. However, such a case or cases would have been mentioned in recent discussions about ROGD and that this hasn't to my knowledge actually happened so far, suggests to me that this is indeed a new phenomenon.

RedToothBrush · 02/11/2019 21:30

Do your own research. Seriously! Ask someone with a uni library account and do a literature search

Errrr

Why do you assume that
a) people haven't done their research
b) need to borrow someone else library card to do research

Oh I forget, we are all just uneducated thickos.

Gotcha.

CharlieParley · 02/11/2019 21:33

FrackOff

I'd appreciate if you could list one or two, please. I won't be judging your links, I am asking because I have a kid with ROGD in the family. After two literature reviews you'll surely have a few studies that you have found most compelling.

JanesKettle · 02/11/2019 21:37

Some of us live with kids with ROGD. Their physicians acknowledge it as a phenonmenon.

ROGD is a description of something happening to teens, mostly but not only girls, in Western culture.

It describes a highly atypical presentation of gender dysphoria, post-puberty, with no history of childhood dysphoria. Diagnosis of dysphoria is preceded by exposure to trans identifying peers, and trans-promoting media. Austim is frequently co-morbid. Teens with ROGD move from non-dysphoric status to dysphoric status in a very short period of time.

ROGD is not well understood, partly because it is so new, and partly because TRA's want to prevent actual studies into this cohort.

No-one can say 'it's debunked' in good faith, because the literature isn't there, on this new cohort, to debunk it. It has only just been described. It has not yet been studied scientifically. There are no high quality research papers out there, on this cohort, to draw any conclusions from.

If TRA's would allow academinc freedom on this matter (as on the matter of detransitioners) then we could speak with more authority, one way or another, on ROGD kids.

At the moment, all the (very limited, descriptive literature) allows us to say is that 'Here is a new group of kids who did not have childhood gender dysphoria. Their developement of gender dysphoria occurs post-pubery and occurs rapidly, and is correlated with a number of factors, including autism and pre-existing mental health conditions. A model of social contagion is suggested. We don't know if we should treat these teens the same way we treat people with a childhood history of dysphoria. At the moment, treating them similarly is experimental.'

There's nothing remotely transphobic about the above, btw.

nauticant · 02/11/2019 21:40

ROGD has been debunked.

If ROGD has been debunked then there are effectively no young women detransitioners. This means that when they turn to us we have to say "terribly sorry about this but according to my beliefs you cannot exist therefore you do not".

nauticant · 02/11/2019 21:43

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LondonKate · 02/11/2019 21:55

I teach at a university and have several young people who identify as trans - they were all born girls and all seem so deeply unhappy. As a lesbian myself I identify with them so much. I worry for them - a whole generation of baby dykes on testosterone, it just doesn't seem right.

TemporaryPermanent · 02/11/2019 21:56

ROGD is a specific description used in a paper surveying parental opinion and experience. A similar description, adolescent onset gender dysphoria, has also been used by clinicians at the Tavistock.

It's a new descriptive hypothesis for a real world phenomenon that also appears to be new. As with all scientific concepts, it has been criticised extensively. Lisa Littmans paper was based on a self selected survey of parents, though the Tavi description of AOGD was not. It certainly hasn't been 'debunked'. Tge paper was forcibly withdrawn and changed before being republished, but the Results section was not changed.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 02/11/2019 22:02

I'm currently finding it difficult as a friend is making her little boy start football because he showed an interest in dancing

On the one hand I completely understand why you are uncomfortable with this. On the other if my children were in school now rather than having left before trans ideology was a thing* I'd be desperate to protect them from the trans cult. It is a real catch 22 for parents.

*My youngest left school in 2016

HerFemaleness · 02/11/2019 22:26

ROGD has been debunked. Rigorous research has and is being conducted.

Research is being conducted on a hypothesis that has already been debunked.

Qcng · 02/11/2019 22:28

There's a long running "trans widows" thread in Mumsnet Feminist Chat board, that provides support for women who's husbands have AGP or gender dysphoria.

I've thought for a long while now that there should be a support thread for mums who have ROGD children, or gender dysphoric children.

I'm not the one to start it, but there are a few such mums on this thread. Maybe someone could start a parents of ROGD children thread?

I have second hand experience of a ROGD child, it's not my child. I have nothing but sympathy for the family.

NotBadConsidering · 02/11/2019 22:34

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