Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans kids

327 replies

Macareaux · 02/11/2019 12:17

This is an interesting article in a US publication about trans kids and rapid onset gender dysphoria.

After considering many aspects of the issue and anecdotal reports and data, the writer comes to the the conclusion that the distilled problem is that there is no way of determining which children are truly trans and which are not.

If we are to progress then sooner or later these mainstream writers are going to have to have the courage to say that there is no such thing as a transgender child.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/11/andrew-sullivan-hard-questions-gender-transitions-for-young.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
FrackOff · 05/11/2019 17:32

Of course, talk away!
I will, too. I'm here to try and understand your point of view.

We are all infected by neoliberalism. And we all need to be aware of that. The market doesn't give a shit about women, trans people, or anyone.

OldCrone · 05/11/2019 17:38

I'm here to try and understand your point of view.

You're never going to understand it if you dismiss everything we say as coming from right wing sources and refuse to read any of it.

DuMondeB · 05/11/2019 17:53

The Morning Star has been excellent on the GC position - only one article on gender questioning kids so far though, so not particularly relevant to this thread.

BeMoreMagdalen · 05/11/2019 17:55

Yeah, we sure are infected by neoliberalism. And the idea that any of this nonsense is anything other than neoliberalism run wild is barking.

You've been posting on and off for a while. I suspect your claim to be here to 'understand the point of view of women who support women's rights' is something you 'identify as', rather like a man can 'identify as' a woman.

Some pass better than others, but identification doesn't change the reality of the situation.

Waterl00 · 05/11/2019 17:58

I have to say the idea that I've been influenced by Russian and Polish trolls beggars belief.

"The market" is something humans created, we made it and we are responsible for controlling it. We use regulation and safeguarding to do that.

I am so colossally bored of the "right wing bad, left wing good" bollocks people rock up here with. Maria Miller (Conservative) chaired the 2016 Trans inquiry that led to the EQ2010 & GRA reform consultation. Maria and Jess Phillips(Labour) proposed adding a new protected characteristic of gender identity to the EQ2010 in a private members bill (cross party).

services.parliament.uk/Bills/2016-17/genderidentityprotectedcharacteristic.html

Gender Identity (Protected Characteristic)

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Mrs Maria Miller, supported by Jess Phillips, Mrs Flick Drummond and Ben Howlett, presented a Bill to make gender identity a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010 in place of gender reassignment and to make associated provision for transgender and other persons; and for connected purposes.

This was halted as a result of the election in 2017 and has not re-emerged.

FrackOff · 05/11/2019 18:19

My goodness, I've just agreed with a lot of what you lot have said and you're still being all grumpy with me!

Fieldofgreycorn · 05/11/2019 18:33

You would select participants from those who would currently follow the experimental affirmation approach, but instead of simply affirming them all you would randomly allocate them to affirmation treatment or talk therapy

I agree all should be given extended talking therapy first. Absolutely.

I’m assuming that most of the health professionals involved in gender treatment provide care based on what they think is the most appropriate treatment.

It’s difficult to see how they would recommend withholding a treatment that they considered appropriate, for 20 years just to see what the outcome is.

OldCrone · 05/11/2019 18:58

I’m assuming that most of the health professionals involved in gender treatment provide care based on what they think is the most appropriate treatment.

How is 'most appropriate' determined?

Helen Webberley thought it was appropriate to prescribe testosterone to a 12-year-old girl.

Johanna Olson-Kennedy thinks it's appropriate for teenage girls to have mastectomies because "if they want breasts at a later point in their life, they can go and get them".

PencilsInSpace · 05/11/2019 19:27

I’m assuming that most of the health professionals involved in gender treatment provide care based on what they think is the most appropriate treatment.

Unfortunately their hands are tied by the memorandum of understanding.

www.psychotherapy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/UKCP-Memorandum-of-Understanding-on-Conversion-Therapy-in-the-UK.pdf

James Caspian was involved in its development:

'I was one of the few people involved who understood transition from a clinical perspective and was not a campaigner, so I had no axe to grind — just concern for the clients and the professionals,' he says.

'When I looked at the ban on conversion therapy, I said, 'If you're not careful, you're going to make people think they can't ever question what somebody coming to them is saying and that's dangerous'.

'Already counsellors have contacted me to say they're worried that if a young client — say a 16-year-old — comes to them with a number of mental health issues or a history of sexual abuse and says, 'I want to transition', that it won't be safe for them to say, 'Well, let's look at this sexual abuse you had. Could that have anything to do with the way you feel about your body?', because that could be construed as conversion therapy.

'One psychotherapist who works with young people called me last night to say she is worried this memorandum could simplify things to a scary degree.

'She said: 'If all I did was affirm my patients were trans without exploring any mental health issues they might have, I don't think I'd be able to help them properly.'

'Equally, people are afraid it might not be safe to work with someone who wants to detransition, i.e. reverse their sex change.

'Let's say a trans female, who is no longer happy in their gender, goes to a counsellor to say they want to go back to living as a man. Could that counsellor be accused of conversion therapy if they help them?

'I kept arguing for specific wording to say, 'We do acknowledge some people do regret their transitions and reverse them, or change their minds.'

But every time I tried to put that wording in it was rejected.

'There are lots of activists within the LGBT community and I sensed that everyone was scared of them.

'One of them said to me on the phone, 'Are you going to block this memorandum?' Of course I didn't want to block it, but I wanted to make it safe for everybody.

'It was a long phone call and quite intimidating. I felt whatever I said was being interpreted as a threat.

I felt this person wasn't prepared to listen to anything I was saying. It literally made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. That's really powerful that sort of fear.

'The problem is that the activists feel only they have any right to say anything and anyone who disagrees with them walks on eggshells for fear of being accused of being transphobic.

I had sleepless nights over the memorandum. I would wake up at 3am worrying about it.

'At that point, I honestly felt I was the only person in the world who was carrying the interests of people who had transitioned and regretted it. Nobody else involved knew what I knew about how these people were suffering, because I was researching them.'

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4979498/James-Caspian-attacked-transgender-children-comments.html

Goosefoot · 05/11/2019 19:39

It’s difficult to see how they would recommend withholding a treatment that they considered appropriate, for 20 years just to see what the outcome is.

But what they think most appropriate isn't meant to be some private viewpoint. It is meant to be evidence based.

Any time there is a study of different methods there is likely some hope that the new one will work better than the old one, that doesn't make it ok to just give the new one without testing. These approaches are all experimental, and even with more "traditional" gay male patients with serious sex dysphoria, the results have always been less than stellar, not enough to clearly preference one approach.

There was a doctor in my town who decided a different vaccine schedule was most appropriate. They college gave him a warning, and then when he kept using it, took away his licence.

PencilsInSpace · 05/11/2019 19:45

And when we're talking about treatments done to children that lead to infertility, loss of sexual function, lifelong medical treatment and a whole host of other problems including weak bones and lower IQ, then it's really not good enough for any HCP to just be doing 'what they think is most appropriate'.

In the absence of any solid evidence that this treatment even works to aleviate gender dysphoria or that the benefits outweigh the risks this is outrageous!

They don't even know what it is they are treating. They have no clue why there has been such an exponential increase in the number of referrals to GIDS - for girls, over 5000% increase in yearly referrals in less than a decade.

Can you imagine this sort of cavalier experimentation in any other branch of paediatric medicine?

Italiangreyhound · 05/11/2019 19:46

Smallblanket

I can agree from my own experience, that if you are a parent/relative bewildered by your teenage child'/relative's sudden declaration that they are a different gender you are jumped on very quickly and very hard if you question a "pro-trans" stance.

Some parents/relatives are very torn. Very distressed because the child is distressed, sometimes suicidal.

So they may join forums for support. But they may not agree with what everyone says.

And scratch the surface of the happy, accepting, affirming, supporting and you will find very scared parents desperately trying to do the right thing. IMHO.

JanesKettle · 05/11/2019 19:54

Frack off with your 'extreme right partnership'.

I'm a member of a left wing party, have only ever voted left, and march/protest/vote for everything on the left you can think off - climate, refugees, landrights, workers rights, indigenous rights, women's rights, gay and lesbian rights. Guardian reading, union belonging blah blah blah.

There's not a penny of 'right wing funding' in my home.

By contrast, the more I dug into transgender ideology, the more shocked I was at how regressive, how homophobic and how neoliberal and consumerist it really was.

Look in the fracking mirror for the right wing supporters.

NotBadConsidering · 05/11/2019 20:11

@FrackOff

NotBadConsidering the BMJ has a transphobic editor.

Can you explain how Fiona Godlee is transphobic?

FrackOff · 05/11/2019 20:13

Journals have more than one editor

PencilsInSpace · 05/11/2019 20:17

Which editor are you saying is transphobic and why?

TheresWaldo · 05/11/2019 20:18

I can speak as a mother who works in STEM, has never particularly adhered to "girly" things and brought up my daughter to see that everything was an option - dance/martial arts/sports/science/coding/cooking/languages/hiking etc. Aged 13/14 she was all Zoella and spent all her spare cash on make up and nail varnish. She had a better and more expensive makeup collection than I have ever owned. Aged 15, apparently she was trans, cut off her waist length hair and asked me for puberty blockers. I still have never got to the bottom of why there was such a sudden switch - did something happen to her that she doesn't want to tell me about? I think she is certainly on the spectrum and that this is a classic case of ROGD encouraged by stuff she has found on social media.

My response was that it is normal to be uncomfortable with your body at this age, but no way would I countenance any medical intervention - it would be like cutting your perfectly healthy leg off because you decided you don't like it much any more. I have said it is fine to dress how you want, have your hair how you want, like what you want, fancy who you want, we are all individuals. So far she seems happy like this. I hope she will learn to love herself as she is before she reaches adulthood. The alternative scares me.

NotBadConsidering · 05/11/2019 20:26

No they don’t. The Editor is the BMJ is Fiona Godlee. You said the editor of the BMJ is transphobic. How is she transphobic? If you don’t mean Fiona Godlee then you don’t really know who the editor of the BMJ is. Who do you mean?

FrackOff · 05/11/2019 20:39

They do! They have lots of editors! Carl Heneghan is the problematic one.

FrackOff · 05/11/2019 20:40

www.bmj.com/about-bmj/editorial-staff

OldCrone · 05/11/2019 20:52

Carl Heneghan is the problematic one.

You think the Professor of Evidence Based Medicine at Oxford is transphobic?

What do you find transphobic? Basing medical treatment on evidence?

Here's one of his articles. Can you explain what you find transphobic?
blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2019/02/25/gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-evidence-review/

PencilsInSpace · 05/11/2019 21:05

Yes what's 'problematic' about Carl Heneghan?

ScrimshawTheSecond · 05/11/2019 21:13

Carl Heneghan is not on that list, FrackOff.

buckeejit · 05/11/2019 21:17

Thanks - that original article is just what I needed right now!

NotBadConsidering · 05/11/2019 21:50

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ as it repeats a deleted post. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.