Trans kids

[Macareaux]

This is an interesting article in a US publication about trans kids and rapid onset gender dysphoria.

After considering many aspects of the issue and anecdotal reports and data, the writer comes to the the conclusion that the distilled problem is that there is no way of determining which children are truly trans and which are not.

If we are to progress then sooner or later these mainstream writers are going to have to have the courage to say that there is no such thing as a transgender child.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/11/andrew-sullivan-hard-questions-gender-transitions-for-young.html

ROGD has been debunked. Rigorous research has and is being conducted

Please share your source ASAP. It would be nice to have robust reassurance that it’s absolutely A-OK for my teenage daughter to have her tits amputated.

It breaks my heart when I read accounts from detransitioners. The affirmative approach has done them permanent harm. Children need to be protected from this.

Another request here for those links, FrackOff. I'd be really interested to read the research debunking ROGD. Had a google, couldn't find anything relevant.

On the one hand I completely understand why you are uncomfortable with this. On the other if my children were in school now rather than having left before trans ideology was a thing I'd be desperate to protect them from the trans cult.*

I was thinking this too.

For goodness sake, make scientific claims; be prepared to provide evidence to support them and yes be prepared for others to debate the quality of the evidence too.

I don't read Buzzfeed for research. I read original literature.
Not that Zucker article. He's written quite a few!
And, once again, kids can't get surgery in the uk.

Well which article then? If there’s so many (a Pubmed search for “Zucker KJ” brings up 152 items) then tell us which one makes the claim you’re making.

And, once again, kids can't get surgery in the uk.

The Internet isn't a UK-only communication medium. The discussions here are about what's happening world-wide.

Why are you desperate to suppress this research rather than promote it, and in doing so offer reassurance and support charities and doctors who are pushing for blkckers to be used younger and for surgery to be available to children as it is in other countries?

Why are you not being a proper ally and sharing this wisdom to educate the ignorant?

The poster can't share this very robust research on this cohort, because it doesn't exist.

(I know we all know this.)

I don't believe it's been debunked as there definitely needs to be more studies done on the topic but this is the stance of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health(WPATH):

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/Public%2520Policies/2018/9_Sept/WPATH%2520Position%2520on%2520Rapid-Onset%2520Gender%2520Dysphoria_9-4-2018.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwixqpXm68zlAhVysXEKHUIZAPUQFjABegQIDhAH&usg=AOvVaw3Rh14yxYTdlaZLIRnE5GaX" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/Public%2520Policies/2018/9_Sept/WPATH%2520Position%2520on%2520Rapid-Onset%2520Gender%2520Dysphoria_9-4-2018.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwixqpXm68zlAhVysXEKHUIZAPUQFjABegQIDhAH&usg=AOvVaw3Rh14yxYTdlaZLIRnE5GaX

And this is an article that details the trouble that some ethicists have with the Littman study:

psychcentral.com/lib/there-is-no-evidence-that-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria-exists/

And, once again, kids can't get surgery in the uk.

They most certainly can.

Legal age for mastectomy on the NHS in the UK:

16 in Scotland
17 in England
18 in Wales and Northern Ireland

Obviously you have to find a surgeon willing to do this and I believe NHS surgeons in Scotland refuse to do them before 18, but it would certainly be legal.

Having internal and external sex organs removed and simulacra of opposite-sex genitals constructed is also an operation legal in underage children in Scotland and England at the same age as mastectomies, but again not done by NHS surgeons until the patient is 18.

There are no private surgeons advertising to underage patients that I could find at a quick search, but this doesn't mean they don't exist. I've certainly found patients claiming to have had mastectomies under 18.

Cross-sex hormones are sold privately and/or prescribed by private doctors and used by unknown numbers of UK children. We do know that the Webberlys prescribed them to children as young as 12. There is no law regulating this, the NHS however does not approve usage in the under 16s.

Now you may quibble about whether 16 and 17-year olds are still children but judging from my experience with kids that age, they very much are still children in many respects. As the brain doesn't mature until our mid-twenties, this isn't a surprise.

That psychcentral article is laughable. Criticising the use of parent reports from “anti-trans” websites? ALL of the data on suicide attempts is from questionnaires with self-selecting people recruited from “pro-trans” websites, Facebook groups, Tumblr etc. So those suicide stats are bogus too then?

If you're asking a specific group of people to report statistics of their suicide attempts you need to go to their sites/groups to get the answers from them directly. There aren't really any anti-trans trans-inclusive places to ask the question. The question is objective as they either have or have not so it doesn't matter if the transgender person is 'pro' or 'anti' trans, they just have to answer yes or no. Although there may be higher uptake in trans people who have attempted suicide due to relevance of the question to them specifically, overall there shouldn't be too much of a skew to ruin the statistics.

The issue with the Littman study is that the target participants were parents who thought their child exhibited a sudden or rapid onset of gender dysphoria. You can find this group over many parenting sites but she chose 4thwavenow, transgendertrend and Youth Trans Critical Professionals which are all gender critical sites. In fairness, within the first week it had reached the FB group Parents of Transgender Children which is generally pro-trans in nature. It may have been genuinely unintentional to post the link to only GC sites. For me personally, it sits too close to selectively choosing a group to get answers that proved her hypothesis instead of asking a varied sample and observing the result, to be comfortable.

I'm all for more studies to test the hypothesis of ROGD, it's an important topic that needs to be thoroughly researched, but at the moment it's still just a hypothesis, not a formal diagnosis.

If you're asking a specific group of people to report statistics of their suicide attempts you need to go to their sites/groups to get the answers from them directly. There aren't really any anti-trans trans-inclusive places to ask the question. The question is objective as they either have or have not so it doesn't matter if the transgender person is 'pro' or 'anti' trans, they just have to answer yes or no. Although there may be higher uptake in trans people who have attempted suicide due to relevance of the question to them specifically, overall there shouldn't be too much of a skew to ruin the statistics.

If you're asking a specific group of people to report statistics of their rapid onset of gender dysphoric symptoms you need to go to their sites/groups to get the answers from them directly. There aren't really any pro trans places to ask the question because parents are dismissed as bigots. The question is objective as they either have or have not so it doesn't matter if the transgender person is 'pro' or 'anti' trans, they just have to answer yes or no. Although there may be higher uptake in trans people who report rapid onset of symptoms due to relevance of the question to them specifically, overall there shouldn't be too much of a skew to ruin the statistics.

So there is no difference. If someone thinks ROGD has been “debunked then you have to accept that “better a living daughter than a dead son” has been debunked, and that both need more quality research.

In the meantime, don’t give kids drugs that will permanently alter their bodies.

Littman study is that the target participants were parents who thought their child exhibited a sudden or rapid onset of gender dysphoria.

In the Littman study, parents whose children exhibited a sudden or rapid onset of gender dysphoria were interviewed.

See how you can phrase things accurately without insinuating the transphobic bigot parents were lying about their kids ?

I can confirm from my own experience that if you are a parent bewildered by your teenage child's sudden declaration that they are a different gender you are jumped on very quickly and very hard if you question it in a "pro-trans" forum. So the parents who are questioning it are unlikely to congregate there.

Worried about my teenage daughter going through this right now, glad I found this thread

Poor kids! It is SO important to teach children they can play with whatever they like and it doesn't make them less of a boy or girl. That gender and sex are biological (I consider them to be the same - 5 years ago should anyone of said sex instead of gender everyone would assume you were Autistic. Not that there's anything wrong with being autistic, it's just sex has always been more medical speak). But personality is however your personality is, biology and personality are different things. That the suggestions of 'feeling like a boy/girl/man/woman' are outdated and sexist.

Yes ace, my daughter, her friend, my niece, several other girls in her school. Luckily my daughter and her friend seem to have come out of it, they are dating and don't conform to sexist stereotypes, why should they! But obviously no social contagion to see here. Instead lets embrace the idea that children have wrong bodies for their personality and that Must Be Fixed. Far more progressive than accepting gay kids or kids that don't perform stereotypes well.

I teach at a university and have several young people who identify as trans - they were all born girls and all seem so deeply unhappy. As a lesbian myself I identify with them so much. I worry for them - a whole generation of baby dykes on testosterone, it just doesn't seem right.

I accidentally signed up for what turned out to be a genderist event. It wasn't too bad until in the afternoon we had a speech from a transman. We were supposed to hear how being a man was so fulfilling but I wasn't convinced.

Looking at this person's body language and listening to their voice (and what wasn't being said) was so sad. It was just like when a friend's telling you she's back with her violent boyfriend but everything's fine now. The same lack of conviction.

I snuck out before the end. I couldn't bear it. I felt so desperately sad for this young person. Just as you say, LondonKate, another baby dyke on testosterone.

If you're asking a specific group of people to report statistics of their suicide attempts you need to go to their sites/groups to get the answers from them directly. There aren't really any anti-trans trans-inclusive places to ask the question. The question is objective as they either have or have not so it doesn't matter if the transgender person is 'pro' or 'anti' trans, they just have to answer yes or no.

Alternatively, we could use statistics from patients of the Tavistock who have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Pro-trans groups regularly use these statistics in order to push for treatment they are very keen to obtain. They therefore have a strong incentive to ensure those stats look as damning as possible.

And, once again, kids can't get surgery in the uk

My kids will always be my kids, even when they are grown ups. That’s how motherhood works.

BTW, what magical thing happens between 16 and 17 that means my kid won’t regret amputating her breasts? Because some UK surgeons will perform private double bi lateral mastectomies on 17 year olds.