It's official, Marks and Spencer have fallen

[MrsSnippyPants]

I know we have 'known' this for a while, but this is now their official response. How many 'inappropriate' incidents will be necessary before they see sense?

#BoycottM&S

I would much rather share changing facilities with all men, rather than only the men who have decided they want to go into the women’s.

I came on the thread to say very similar.

I would rather change in the men's changing room, with a whole loads of men who know they are men and are also seeking single sex facilities than any male who either believes/wants people to think/pretends he is a woman for any reason and feels justified in disregarding the boundaries of every single woman who doesn't want him in there.

WineIsMyCarb

The CEO - email was given up thread but I'll post it here as well.

[email protected]

The reply came from

[email protected]

For the “I don’t care so you shouldn’t” posters: it’s absolutely your right not to care. But you don’t get to tell any other woman that she shouldn’t care, and you don’t get to give away her rights just because you’re not bothered about keeping them yourself. You have no idea why some women would be distressed, upset, uncomfortable or angry about this. And you don’t have to have any idea. You have no right to know their history, their religion, their experience or otherwise of harm at male hands or anything about them. They don’t have to justify to you why they feel differently, you are not the arbiter of whether their reason is “valid” against a prescribed list only you hold. Women’s rights are not a majority vote issue. They are - or should be - single right of veto. If just one woman says “I’m not comfortable with seceding these women’s rights to men” then that should be enough, because who are you to tell that woman she is wrong? To tell her to “get over it” or that she’s being “hysterical”? To put her in a position where she can no longer access a place, a service, a need that she has been able to access until men decided they wanted it?

Maybe the questions to ask are why did M & S have single sex changing facilities in the first place? And as they are now changing them to mixed sex (but deceiving women by calling them single sex) what action will their staff take when men like this demand to use the women's changing room?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/upskirting-law-convictions-legislation-cps-gina-martin-a9120481.html

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/pinewood-studios-james-bond-cameras-toilets-peter-hartley-arrested-a9095306.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7514875/Pervert-school-cleaner-51-jailed-setting-secret-camera-spy-female-toilets.html

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/26/doctor-jailed-secretly-film-patients-toilet

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-spy-cameras-hidden-public-places-peeping-toms-a8689626.html

Comments under The Times article are still awaiting moderation.

I predict outrage.

Jeez, when will M&S learn to listen to its actual customers? I gave up on their clothing years ago, when everything was embellished with sequins or embroidery .

And cold shoulders, frills and lace.

M&S are a great case study of how to take a respected brand with a clearly-defined, financially-comfortable demographic and nose-dive it into the pavement. I think business students should have to read about it as a cautionary tale.

LBC will be discussing soon but he’s not got around to it yet, surprisingly Nik Ian on women’s side often he’s not.

M&S Disabled cubics often just flimsy curtain I suppose this makes it easier but I’ve often felt more exposed as the curtain opens in middle of changing room. As the cubical is quite big you can’t tell who maybe in there. Staff and customers often just open it as it looks empty. Minor problem if trying on a bra but when it’s all women you can get over it.

I’ve found Sainsbury's TU clothing range for Bra to be very good if anyone is looking for alternate, not break the bank either!

Very well said OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg.

'I think it's fine therefore it is indeed fine for everyone' is not a good look.

Sorry I haven't read the full thread, but has anyone posted a link to an email or address we can write to to query M&S on their mixed sex changing room policy?

I'd like to know if they carried out any risk assessments before making their changing room mixed sex, what other alternatives they considered and whether they have made it clear on their signage that their changing rooms are no longer separated by sex, but by gender.

They have a weird approach to customers. I should be plumb in the middle of their demographic, yet rarely shop there:

1. It all looks so frumpy as you walk in
2. Its quite hard to find clothes that look good on me, middle-aged and all that, so I want to feel comfortable in the changing room.
3. Their food section is full of plastic. Seemingly more so than any other supermarket. Lidl is less plastic, no confusing BOGOF and no temptation at the checkout. Add the fact it is significantly cheaper yet still offers good quality olive oil and wine (I said I was in the middle of their demographic) and it become a no brainer.

This is written in the hope that someone from M&S is reading. I don't care about woke or not. I don't much like shopping so am happy to spend more on items I feel suit me. I can't be faffed with internet shopping as I really want to try things on. But it needs to be a comfortable experience. And as a customer I put my comfort before someone who needs their gender identity confirmed. If M&S don't, there is no obligation to shop there.

Well done Jean. Great interview on LBC

I took my teenage daughter to a large branch of M&S a few months ago to buy some bras. She was in the changing room trying on a couple and I was standing outside her cubicle waiting for her to come out when a man came into the changing room. The attendant politely asked him to leave, he refused as he had small children with him and said it wasn't fair on them to get changed in the men's changing room (). The attendant insisted that he leave and eventually he did. I couldn't believe his entitlement - for the record, the lingerie department and its changing room is right at the other end of the store from the children's/men's departments but he thought he could use them as a free pass to ogle women and girls having bra fittings. I guess he should have just waited until the autumn and the attendant wouldn't have been unable to do anything. I won't be going back in a hurry. In retrospect, the attendant didn't seem at all surprised by his behaviour, the way she dealt with it gave the impression it had happened many times before.

It's very telling that the responses by Helen and her followers on Twitter show little respect/concern for women and girls.

There are lots of sexist and ageist comments too. Unsurprisingly.

They also seem very confused about the Equality Act. Again.

M&S are a great case study of how to take a respected brand with a clearly-defined, financially-comfortable demographic and nose-dive it into the pavement. I think business students should have to read about it as a cautionary tale.

I second that.

@HandsOffMyRights I’ve just read Helen’s twitter and once again they’re making it all about trans rather than the fact that M&S are opening the door to men. They also seem to have no understanding at all about the equalities act. They also seem very quick to sneer at women feeling uncomfortable. Maybe they should be brave and stunning and answer why they don’t want to change in the locked cubicles in the men’s.

I did in fact have to do a business exam once (in about 2001) where the example made up company who were failing and needing to forecast their future profits was clearly a thinly disguised M&S!

Sum of LBCs in-depth discussion

Women- It’s bad for women and girls

I’m trans women I should be allowed but not men.

Women- I use mixed sex for swimming it doesn’t bother me so everyone should be ok with it.

It could have been better.

Exactly Always it's just 'cheap' and desperate sexist smearing.

Women on here and those with teenage daughters are rightly concerned.

If those trivialising with stereotypical sexist jokes had to walk in our shoes (mine wouldn't appeal as they are just plain flats) then they would get it.

I'm sure the women who were photographed while changing in Target, or those that had to witness a man expose himself in Target or the teenage girl who was upskirted there find the subject highly amusing.

They also seem very confused about the Equality Act. Again
This is what happens when organisations get their advice from lobbyists rather than lawyers

The reply came from

[email protected]

Oh the irony M&S.

FFS.

CHAIRMAN.

So the CHAIRMAN isn't being asked to budge up in the name of woke.

Yes the CHAIRMAN called Julia.

I have emailed her back.

Quite frankly that is not good enugh.

I would ask you to consider some of the poits in my origional email, not rehash the tweet sent out yesterdayt.

I'm assuming you are a woman by yur name (But if I have missgendered you I appologise) are you happy to undress in a cubicle next to a rapist? Are you happy that the rapist's feeling have priority over your safety?

Has M and S undertaken a risk assessement of this policy?

If the cubicles protect customer's privacy why have this new access policy at all?

They are quite simpole questiuons

please may I have an answer?

IN my defence of the typos, I did send this at 4.00am

M&S could just announce some Unisex for all those not bothered, those not sure where they should go, families with different sex children etc job done. They get tick other inclusive boxes rather than just transgender.
Since I’ve never seen queue at men’s changing rooms this would seem space for it.

Exactly - adding genuinely new ‘anyone can use them’ changing rooms without changing or taking away from existing provision for single sex women’s changing would be actually inclusive.