Center Parcs upholding single sex spaces?

[gcnotterf1]

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/30/center-parcs-trans-woman-changing-rooms-equalities-act-victoria-hodges/

It has been proven that mammals genetically inherit fear of particular things as an evolutionary safety mechanism. Females have had millennia of violence and abuse from males, so an instinctive aversion to strange males when females are in a vulnerable state may be something that simply cannot be overcome by appeals to be kind or inclusive. It would seem that males are completely oblivious to the instincts of females and don't understand that we cannot just get over it, as Stonewall demands.
www.livescience.com/41717-mice-inherit-fear-scents-genes.html

Some women
Defend their rights
To spaces away from men.
Get Over It.

That's so interesting unwashedanddazed (great username btw) - it makes sense.

"It has been proven that mammals genetically inherit fear of particular things as an evolutionary safety mechanism. Females have had millennia of violence and abuse from males, so an instinctive aversion to strange males when females are in a vulnerable state may be something that simply cannot be overcome by appeals to be kind or inclusive. It would seem that males are completely oblivious to the instincts of females and don't understand that we cannot just get over it, as Stonewall demands."

That's very interesting, and makes sense. The notion of being around a strange male when in a vulnerable state is just completely unthinkable, unimaginable, incomprehensible to me. And I'm not an especially vulnerable woman. I can't even get my head around the thought that it would be acceptable, especially in an open plan changing environment. It's so bonkers to me that surely it can't actually be real.

The notion of being around a strange male when in a vulnerable state is just completely unthinkable, unimaginable, incomprehensible to me. And I'm not an especially vulnerable woman. I can't even get my head around the thought that it would be acceptable, especially in an open plan changing environment. It's so bonkers to me that surely it can't actually be real.

Tracy Shaw from Safe Schools Alliance describes how teenage girls on a school trip were forced to share a dormitary with a male peer. Neither the girls nor their parents gave consent.

Tracy Shaw from Safe Schools Alliance describes how teenage girls on a school trip were forced to share a dormitory with a male peer. Neither the girls nor their parents gave consent.

This is so shocking- a safeguarding failure and should be subject to an investigation at least if not legal action. Those girls will have been trapped in a situation they weren't expecting and were not ok with and did not give consent to because presumably they didn't have mobile phones with them (at my kids schools mobiles not allowed on residential trips). If my daughter had to spend a week sleeping next to a male body without my or her consent I'd be seeking legal action.

What's also very important to recognise is the power of dynamics which have meant that girls, parents & teachers feel unable to voice their recognition of risk & consequent discomfort.

This dynamic is coercive & controlling. It leaves girls at risk & unable to re-assert appropriate boundaries.

Those girls will have been trapped in a situation they weren't expecting and were not ok with and did not give consent to because presumably they didn't have mobile phones with them (at my kids schools mobiles not allowed on residential trips).

Many girls would not seek parental involvement as the majority of policy responses to girls discomfort with being expected to share intimate space with male peers is to remove the girl. Teenagers will be very aware of the impact of being singled out.
That the girls concerns or those of their parents may well be understood/perceived in the current climate as discriminatory /transphobic is significant. This perception is not just from peers but also schools, politicians, LAs, police & CPS

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3809302-CPS-school-hate-crime-guidance-we-must-complain

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3804613-New-Year-New-Judicial-Review-CPS-Hate-Crime-Guidance-for-schools

This dynamic is coercive & controlling. It leaves girls at risk & unable to re-assert appropriate boundaries.

We seemed to have come so far from "no means no". It's depressing.

Criminalising girls’ reactions to males. Or ostracising them for it.

Meanwhile taking it for granted that the boys cannot be expected to react kindly and responsibly to an unusual male peer.

That’s sexist in the extreme.

@GirlOnTheRoof you seem passionate about this subject - are you going to stick around and engage on other threads?

Or is this a one trick pony and now you’ve ‘won’ your point (at least with CP, and at least for now), you’ve nothing more to add?

There’s been some worthwhile points raised here that warrant your response if you want to at least try and further your cause.

Meanwhile taking it for granted that the boys cannot be expected to react kindly and responsibly to an unusual male peer.That’s sexist in the extreme.

It's a very good point. Why aren't men up in arms saying NAMALT when men or boys who don't fit say they need to go in the ladies/girls instead?

If most men are kind (as I believe they are) - there's no problem with feminine boys/men using the mens (as many transpeople have attested to). If they're not, then why are we making single sex spaces mixed sex and why isn't this an unacceptable risk to women/girls?

A friend used the analogy of drink driving. Not all those who drink and drive will cause accidents. Some drinkers can drive very well. Some can take 5 pints and others only 1.

But we draw a legal line to protect the majority and we police that line - either with legal means, through the public reporting or through campaigns.

We don't allow people to self identify as those who are perfectly safe with 5 pints on board and a long drive ahead.

Similarly, NAMALT. But many are. And that includes those who are now transwomen or non-binary etc.

So, we want to police the line. And it has been done without the law being involved but that isn't working (just as it wasn't working for driving). So we want a line.

I would vote for sex segregated spaces regardless of external gender presentation. Just as I would argue for roads without drinkers on them at all.

Will Center Parcs be providing free sets of sturdy pyjamas? I seem to remember that was the recommended advice for Girlguiding
members who might find themselves expected to sleep next to males

I dont remember this, was hoping it was in fact a joke but I'm going to guess it's not.

Not a joke, a direct quote from one of the architects of the original 2004 GRA, Stephen Whittle, made here on this very forum!

There’s been some worthwhile points raised here that warrant your response if you want to at least try and further your cause.

^Yeah, Vicky mate, you might want to read the whole thread. You're crowing about your 'victory' whilst ignoring women who have explained why they can't share intimate spaces with males. It's not a good look.

Wasn't it sturdy pyjamas and emergency contraception? Might as well bring back the chastity belt.

Will Center Parcs be providing free sets of sturdy pyjamas? I seem to remember that was the recommended advice for Girlguiding
members who might find themselves expected to sleep next to males

I dont remember this, was hoping it was in fact a joke but I'm going to guess it's not.

I wish....

The irony is that even by forcing their biologically male bodies into female changing rooms transwomen will still never attain the level of validation they seek
One may well be able to force ones way into a room marked female, one cannot force natal women to also use that room.
I have faith that we will find a way where women again get their own spaces. I dunno how, but we will.

Almost at 40 pages so no time to check if this is the correct thread for the pyjamas quote. A quick skim read found lots of comments about contraception for teens and tweens on residential trips!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3212371-Where-are-all-the-trans-men-An-Answer?pg=1

Stephen Whittle acknowledged on FWR a failure to consider Safeguarding principles (as per Samaritans) when discussing suicide. From memory the quote was that it 'hadnt occured' to Stephen when writing in the Guardian.
Stephen did engage with women posting on FWR, acknowledged the serious implications to those most vulnerable & sought to change the article.

When lobbyists who acknowledge that important Safeguards 'dont occur to them' but are so instrumental in making policies impacting children & vulnerable adults, these policies must be scrutinised by people who do understand & prioritise Safeguarding.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3397127-Stephen-Whittle-Press-for-Change-irresponsible-use-of-likely-suicides-follows-Helen-Belchers-Trans-Media-Watch

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398127-Stephen-Whittle-influential-TRA-asserts-We-know-we-have-Labour-behind-this-one-so-will-simply-do-our-best-to-get-them-elected-Corbyn-seems-to-confirm-this-at-Pink-News

If most men are kind (as I believe they are) - there's no problem with feminine boys/men using the mens

I do see a problem here with 'most', especially in schools.

Amongst 500 boys in an average secondary, there are probably 10% or so who are gits, so a male transgirl using the boys' facilities is likely to run into at least one of them daily.

Whereas, if you stick the male transgirl in the girls instead, there's probably a similar 10% chance that that particular transgirl is a git and thus an actual hazard to the girls.

So I can see why schools do it. That still removes the safe feelings and privacy of the girls, though.

I can see why some people campaign for the safety and dignity of the transgirl, but not why they choose to ignore those of the girls.

That’s why third spaces are the practical solution. Or punishing/expelling ‘gits’ so that kids can use their birth sex facilities safely.

All the other kids being bullied for spurious reasons might benefit from the 'gits' being disciplined too.