Center Parcs upholding single sex spaces?

[gcnotterf1]

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/30/center-parcs-trans-woman-changing-rooms-equalities-act-victoria-hodges/

Vicky understood my question, and my words, perfectly, and had no answer to it that didn't either admit fault, or admit to not giving a shit about women. So a petulant attempt at a deflection resulted.

Give someone enough rope.

@Langbannedforsafeguardingkids
You must be assuming I'm a man, I'm not, I'm a transgender woman. I've transitioned.

If your eyes are open, then realise and see , it is not being strong and brave to go into the changing room, your actually setting your cause back, you should be trying to gain our support of your cause, if laws need to be changed it will not be how you think, it will be done to protect the primary age children.

GirlOnTheRoof
You told us who you were.
You told us about yourself.
You told the newspaper about yourself.
How can you now tell us it is not true?

@theflushedzebra
There's a private changing cubicle inside the open plan changing room for any woman that wants to use it.

Here you go *Mummy2017’ in the original PN article that began the thread V Hodges states that having been to CP every year for the past three years, this would be the first post transition visit.

WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) Standards of Care state that a minimum of 12 continuous months of living in role congruent with gender identity are necessary to meet the criteria for genital surgery.

www.wpath.org/publications/soc

@mummmy2017
What's not true?
I'm not following your logic.

So what was VIcky complaining for in the first place then? Vicky, from the article (I acknowledge that Pink News is not the most reliable source) was not allowed in the female changing rooms, but offered a private changing room.

I wonder if a 4 year old kid has any idea who's transitioned or not? They're too young to even know or be able to pronounce the word! Nope. They see XX (women) and XY (men) - the body shape is different, the smell the sound. It's obvious. They can tell from a young age. Millenia of evolution - sexual dimorphism is scientific fact for ALL mammalian species (yes, fish are different - but we're not even remotely related to fish).

I'm sick of people gaslighting kids and undermining their safety.

@DuLANGMondeFOREVER
Correct first visit post transition.

Your DNA.
We know what it is because you told the newspapers.
So you should respect how we feel and use the changing room suitable for you.
Showing your struggle is for yourself, not to score points.
I would respect you for that.

girlontheroof with respect, you're acting as though the article isn't still at the top of this thread. It says VIcky was denied access to the female changing rooms, but offered a private room.

Vicky complained, and then was allowed access to the female changing room, according to Vicky's own interview reported in Pink News.

There's a private changing cubicle inside the open plan changing room for any woman that wants to use it.

So a male who identifies as a woman in Centre Parc's female changing & showering space may choose to use this cubical or not, that would be their choice?

They can tell from a young age. Millenia of evolution - sexual dimorphism is scientific fact for ALL mammalian species (yes, fish are different - but we're not even remotely related to fish).

What’s really interesting is how this knowledge is cross species. My lurcher bitch can tell a human male from a human female a mile off on a dark night (she hates men, common in rescue dogs) and I, of course, know she is female.

@R0wantrees
A transgender woman can use the female changing room, that is correct

Is there a petition on No 10 website we can sign, to make Parliament debate this.
Off too look.

A transgender woman can use the female changing room, that is correct

It would seem from previous posters attempts at clarification with the company that now any male who identifies themselves as a woman to Centre Parcs would then have access to the female changing /showering area.
An open communal area where girls (u18) & women may be naked.

This space was single sex for female's safety, privacy & dignity.

As it is now mixed sex, women & girls' safety, dignity & privacy is compromised.

For some reason this thread is reminding me that I can even tell my female dog’s wee smell from my male dog’s wee smell. Important for claiming ownership through scent marking, of course.

It seems like an error,” she says. “This can’t seriously be their policy towards transgender individuals using their spa and changing facilities. What the policy does is to segregate transgender individuals into those that have and those that haven’t ‘gone through the full transition’ vs. ‘still in the transition period’.”

I agree with this. It is an error & it is unacceptable to ask questions of a transperson about what surgeries they may or may not have had & then treat people differently according to their response.

The private changing room should be available to anyone who identifies as trangender (regardless of medication or surgery) should they not wish to use the changing room of their sex.

The second error by Centre Parcs was to then grant access to the opposite sex changing facilities on a self-identification basis.

This is a Safeguarding failure.

Centre Parcs

@R0wantrees
Transgender women can use single sex changing rooms as they have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment under the equality act. To exclude them you'd need to prove you had a legitimate reason and it was proportional (proportional means of achieving a legitimate aim). That's decided by a court case and applied on a case by case basis. I'm sure we've discussed this before.

Why do I always feel I am reading emperor's new clothes the story.
All it takes is one small child to disprove something.

@R0wantrees
It would only be a safeguarding failure if transgender women posed a threat to other women and girls but they don't as they are not predatory men, they are women, transgender women. Not a threat to anyone. It's slanderous to say they are a threat, a misrepresentation of the reality and truth.

The irony is that even by forcing their biologically male bodies into female changing rooms transwomen will still never attain the level of validation they seek. They won’t suddenly become physically indistinguishable from biological women and women who have already experienced male sexual harassment and violence will still be wary. Entering a women’s changing room won’t stop children from wondering aloud why a man is in there.

However, if transwomen were kinder and used their own spaces and appreciated how women’s experiences of male violence affects women’s responses to male bodies then they’d be much more likely to be accepted and supported.

To exclude them you'd need to prove you had a legitimate reason and it was proportional (proportional means of achieving a legitimate aim).

Protecting women & girl's safety, dignity & privacy whilst changing so naked/showering would seem legitimate. Providing available private changing rooms for people who identify as transgender regardless of medication and/or surgery alongside single sex space seems proportionate.

JackyH wrote of women's toilets so one presumes this is also the case for female communal changing rooms:

"If a person does not have a GRC they should be treated the same as everyone who is of that same natural sex. Thus, a male who transitions should be treated the same as any other male and vice versa. Anyone can ask to inspect a person's birth certificate to check the sex reference. If a male who transitions has a BC that reads as male he should be treated as a male.

There is no law about his use of toilets so there is zero requirement to allow him to use any of the women's facilities, even if he does have a GRC. It only takes one woman to "reasonably object" to have any man removed from any women's facility / service.

EqA, Schedule 3, section 27, subsection 6: (6)The condition is that—

(a) the service is provided for, or is likely to be used by, two or more persons at the same time, and

(b)the circumstances are such that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex."

It would only be a safeguarding failure if transgender women posed a threat to other women and girls but they don't as they are not predatory men, they are women, transgender women. Not a threat to anyone. It's slanderous to say they are a threat, a misrepresentation of the reality and truth.

It is a Safeguarding failure when sex-based safeguards protecting girls & women are removed.

Predatory males will always exploit Safeguarding failures/loopholes.

This does not mean that all males are predatory.

Safeguarding is about recognising & minimising identified risk,

Males being able to self identify into a formerly single sex space where girls (U18) & women are changing & showering is a recognised risk.