Christmas is just a load of wifework: discuss

[drspouse]

DH and I have a collaborative approach to Christmas though he tends to want to do less than I do in terms of activities, as our DS needs a bit of structure I usually overrule him.
He writes more Christmas cards than I do as we only do them for elderly relatives who don't have email and he has more of them.
However all family just want me to give them suggestions for presents for the DCs.
And could you just send me a link.
And what does DH want.
Oh can't you just buy it and I'll pay you back. Can't you wrap it too?
And the mums on FB... My goodness. And here too. I bet all the dads are not wrapping up the living room door and moving the elf and buying reindeer food. And working out which relative won't eat smoked salmon canapes and when to get their Ocado slot. And if they'll fit into their slinky dress for the work party.
It's just the whole year of sexism multiplied by 65 million isn't it?

I do hear what you're saying goosefoot, but who is the decider of what is essential and what is an add-on? My dh would not "bother" with stockings for the dc, a carol service, going into town to see the tree, a nice present for his mother. I don't think these are excessive add-ons.

But now we get to a second issue....what to do when partners disagree, (and why do women often seem to be the ones wanting more in terms of housework, Christmas etc)

. I am with your DH that some of the things you think essential are not. If you do something becuase you want to, just get on with it. It's not wifework, it's your choice. Or it's a socialisation that you have accepted.

If you think the kids really want it, and that's why you do whatever surely DH will be convinced when they nag him and sob when it appears that whatever won't happen and you tell them it's DH who is responsible this year.

( stockings excluded, they are a human right)

Stockings are essential to Christmas!
But Christmas Eve boxes, special night clothes, reindeer food, Santa, an elf on a shelf, going carolling, those are all extras. Even putting up lights and decorations outside are optional.

So, given that Christmas has become so very bloated, if women are feeling overwhelmed, why would we suggest getting men more intwined with that, rather than than taking stock of what needs to be done.

I completely agree. The answer isn't to insist that more people get involved but to actually pare Christmas down so that all of the unnecessary bits are removed.

My dh would not "bother" with stockings for the dc, a carol service, going into town to see the tree, a nice present for his mother. I don't think these are excessive add-ons.

The only "essential" that I can see there are stockings for the children.

Carol service and seeing the tree are things that you want to go to, they aren't essential. If you want to go then that's your choice and you should arrange it. If you don't want to go then don't go.

The present for his.mum is down to him. Tell him now that you aren't sorting it. If he doesn't then it's on him, not you.

I agree with you Goosefoot but often if you suggest to a group (school or family or indeed MN) that a certain “tradition” be ditched, you are cast as the bah humbug joy thief. Plus with a lot of school based events like Christmas jumper day there is a charity element so then you’re Scrooge as well.

@minipie dads were involved. Some do take an active interest in their children. And a few dads are the main carers.
My own dc’s went through their own clothes and asked when young primary. But they generally picked out their own clothes anyway and helped sort through their own stuff until they were able to do it independently.

I think there can be a middle way with things like Christmas jumper day. Some schools encourage decorating an old jumper. Ideally they'd say take in an old jumper or top, anyone who can afford to / wants to can donate some bits and bobs, and they decorate them at school (since they spend most of november / december doing xmas shite anyway).

Schools, especially primary schools, are a big source of the expectations, which ore often blatantly placed on mums alone, or effectively land on mums as they are lumbered with the wifework that so many men just won't do. They can make a huge difference and we can suggest ideas to schools that can help take some of the financiul and wifework load off women and less well-off families

Again, making suggestions like this, as with extended families, can result in a bad reaction and being cast as a weirdo or killjoy. But that's a big part of how the patriarchy is maintained - disapproval, making women feel like failures or outcasts, sometimes subtly, sometimes less so.

For me it's part of being a feminist that I'm used to being that odd one out who questions patriarchal and sexist shite at school, says no to some family expectations, and so on and so on. It does have consequences. I think often it comes good in the log run though as people start to back you and changes can sometimes happen.

I'm not willing to reduce Christmas down to getting gifts on Christmas Day. I want more of carol singing, looking at Christmas lights type outings, not less! Spread the season further and don't make it only about presents. I like my mil and would not want to see her disappointed. Dh would get a free pass for buying something crap. I think finding the money is more stressful than anything tbh, and again I'm the one shopping around for the toys or games they want so they can have what they want without bankrupting us.

I'm not willing to reduce Christmas down to getting gifts on Christmas Day. I want more of carol singing, looking at Christmas lights type outings, not less!

Which sounds great and it's your choice to want that. But you can't then complain that other people need to facilitate your choices surely?

It's different if your DH was insisting that the family go to carol services, have loads of decorations and parties but then doing nothing to help, but as it's your choice and what you want to do then it should be up to you to organise shouldn't it?

School can be asked to think about the financial impact these events have on parents. Go to the governors, get the pta on board if you have to.

Trees and carol services are extras. We did the stuff we were interested in. At times they would go along with a friend, just same as at times during the year we would take friends children to various things.
And do the children want to sit through a service and get the same joy that you do? During Christmas I have friends children here because they aren’t interested but parents are.

The lack of presents to my parents was solely down to me. I had made a decision to not give them any. My ex respected me enough to stick this. He didn’t understand it because he liked his family and enjoyed spending money and time on them. But he never went out and got mine something.

And I think that’s why I don’t understand why partners still go out and get the in-laws stuff. Surely you should respect that decision made, you might not agree with it. But it’s their choice. I never shared my reasons, he asked in the beginning and said if I didn’t want to say this was my choice and if I wanted to talk he was always there.

Now this is where everyone says wtf. Although I still have a school aged child at home and friends with children. I don’t have a tree. Everyone who has spent Christmas here still has fond memories even though the tree wasn’t there. That is now the new tradition in this house.
The first Christmas we had the cats they just played with anything low. Their second and like fuck was I redoing the tree daily. If anyone else was bothered they could and did for a few days. Years later and they sniff a decoration and you can see them planning.

I love doing stockings and not just for children. But if someone else isn’t bothered I am not going to force it onto them because it makes me happy. When I split with ex, a friend also loved getting the stocking so we did each other’s and as the dc’s aged they wanted to be more involved.

I know people who have no interest at all and so I don’t impose things on them because of societal norms or because it brings me joy.

Amazing how quickly some people want to get involved when they aren’t included in certain elements. If I am told a person has no interest in any of it, awesome no present. Over the years I have noticed some of the not interested in the food or presents, want to enjoy these without putting in the effort. And of course there are those that genuinely don’t want a thing, and some of these you have to be firm with that they don’t need to buy your dcs a thing. Although they do because it’s something they actually enjoy.

I do hear what you're saying goosefoot, but who is the decider of what is essential and what is an add-on? My dh would not "bother" with stockings for the dc, a carol service, going into town to see the tree, a nice present for his mother. I don't think these are excessive add-ons.

This is where it becomes problematic to say 'society must change' because the add ons you list are mostly things that are personal to you and your family and society isn't pressuring people to do in the first place.

I've never been to a carol service in my life, never gone into to town to see the tree, never bought a 'nice' as opposed to token gift for my partner's mother. Stockings for children I'll grant you but these other expectations aren't coming from society, they're coming from your own family, your own concept of what is a reasonable add on. Millions of families aren't doing them. Not that there is anything wrong with any of them being options but I'm struggling to see how society can change in a manner to make those who do feel pressured to do them feel less pressured when they are aspects that society in general already sees as no more than 'nice to haves if you want them'.

Can I ask, what is "doing stockings"?
We pile presents under the tree, and some of the smaller ones go in stockings. Everyone in the family has one.
But everyone's talking like "doing stockings" is some additional extra chore, I'm wondering if "doing stockings" is something else to everyone else.

I imagine, as with much else, doing stockings varies wildly from family to family.

In mine stockings are for the presents Santa leaves and only for children. They are left on the foot of the bed and contain small, cheap gifts such as packs of pens, notebooks, chocolate coins because Santa gives gifts too all the world's children. They are entirely separate from gifts from family members.

I do hear what you're saying goosefoot, but who is the decider of what is essential and what is an add-on?

In terms of a school, I think it's going to have to be something of a negotiation. What is important is for that to happen, because often people just make suggestions for more and more things that get added on. Any one of them might be a nice idea, but it gets to be too much, but everyone feels this sense of obligation around all of it so no one says, you know what, this is really a burden to me and my family.

For me, at school, I think it's really nice for the kids to have a little party together sometime before they leave for the holiday. I don't see that there needs to be anything much in terms of bringing stuff in, really they need juice and a cookie and to play a few Christmas games or do some paintings, stuff the teacher would organise anyway or the kids themselves. Or maybe they could all watch a classic Christmas film the last afternoon.

I can also see the school putting up a tree early in the month and having the kids make some ornaments. And I suspect a lot of parents might like to hear the kids sing or play some Christmas type music or songs in a concert - that is a little more parental work but it is fairly traditional and there really is a lot of good Christmas music choirs and bands will want to play. Even that though, maybe if people are too busy most would rather not.

So, yes, it will have to be a negotiation but I strongly suspect many people would really like to simplify and make it less fixated on stuff that will never be used again.

Stocking are for the children...they each leave a big sack at the end of their bed for Santa to put his presents. Their big gifts are under the tree from us. Santa presents are much smaller and cheaper but loads of them. I got my dc about 40 small gifts each last year for their stockings which sounds a lot but they're small thing so socks, hair clips, chocolate coins, pens etc. I buy the bits over a period of a few months. The wrapping takes ages but it's the bit of Christmas they enjoy the most.

In mine stockings are for the presents Santa leaves and only for children. They are left on the foot of the bed and contain small, cheap gifts such as packs of pens, notebooks, chocolate coins because Santa gives gifts too all the world's children. They are entirely separate from gifts from family members.

This is similar to what we do. Stockings are what Santa leaves for kids. They always have a chocolate orange, underpants, socks, a very fancy toothbrush, and then smaller things that each child might want - markers, guitar picks, drumsticks. Sometimes there is one gift that is a bit more special - this year they are each getting a ticket to a play.

I have described a really pared-down Christmas tbh, have a look at the Christmas threads on here for the full blown experience, and I'm surprised this is viewed as me taking on excessive work of my own choosing. I suppose by the same token we need sofas but we don't need cushions on the sofas - so since I choose to have cushions I can't be expecting the rest of the family to pick them off the floor and leave them neatly on the sofa. Equally we don't need flowers so why should anyone else get involved in watering them or planting them in the garden - maybe I'll just concrete over the garden next year.
It is daft to think that the old "woman's touch" that is applied to homes and meals and festivals is not also a product of our conditioning - we learn (often) at our mother's knee to find almost unconscious ways of pleasing other people and making family life good for others. It is clearly sexist that it is women who are expected to do this not men, but I am not convinced that life would be better if we all moved over to the standards adopted by the men in our life instead of meeting somewhere in the middle. Everyone benefits from women's unpaid labour. I know my children do.

The other reason we've always done stockings as separate is because it gives small children something to open immediately on waking up so they find it easier to wait until everyone is ready for the main present opening event.

It's about agreeing between you as a family what is important, and therefore what all are expected to take responsibility for, and what is personal. And being open about this. And sticking to it.

If it's only you want the hassle of cushions, pick them and arrange them as you see fit,

If they all want cushions, but are happy /prefer for them to be on the floor, again that's a difference of opinion about what is important.

If they like flowers but not enough to water them, change the planting to something less demanding, let them die, or concrete it over as you suggest. Don't be a martyr or a mug.

Oh ok. Our stockings go under the tree with everything else and aren't an additional effort at all.

For us, stockings hang on the mantel over the fireplace. Everyone has one, adults and children. It’s small things that can be opened when you first wake up and before breakfast.
We don’t teach the myth of Santa so all presents are from family and each other purely in celebration of Christ’s birth.

Stockings are more like a lucky dip bag you used to be able to buy. Small things that the person would get anyway and some stuff already in the house. Started doing it to give me a bit more time in bed when the children were younger and just carried on. There’s no extra work involved and at times have asked whoever is wrapping to do them. Come to think of it have asked them to wrap some other presents as well. Not every year and when it dawns on them on Christmas Day it’s funny. Same with doing the million box wrapped tiny present.

Stockings do seem like a good example of pointless extra work to me.

Not only do I have to think of an source an array of gifts, I then have to work out what goes in the stocking and what goes under the tree (I don't want to give Santa credit for any of it, dammit). And then there's the sourcing a different wrapping paper pattern and keeping it out of the kid's sight in perpetuity.

Dealing with the sneaking and the creaky bedroom door seemed like too much stress, so in my house Santa hasn't the time to go all the way upstairs. Stockings are left handily by the fireplace so he can do a super speedy in-and-out job.

Plus there's a part of me that thinks strange old men coming in your room when you're asleep is something we should be teaching children to be suspicious of, not excited about.

Very hard to not do stockings at all though. I don't want DD wondering why Santa visits everyone else and not her. I could resist the social pressure but it's her who'd feel worthless and shit about it.

Stockings and Santa strike me as one of the areas where there is real societal pressure to play along.

Previous poster mentions not teaching the myth of Santa, which should of course be a free choice for each family, but in reality if you went round telling random 5 year olds that the whole fat man in a red suit delivering presents thing was a load of old codswallop and it was just mammy and daddy leaving the stocking it would definitely not go down well.

It's way more acceptable to tell children you don't believe the whole Jesus thing than you don't believe in Santa.