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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A picture speaks a thousand words. Transwomen in women’s sport

341 replies

LemonGingerCakes · 23/10/2019 22:23

I've never started a thread like this before, but this is bothering me.

No comments. Just letting the pictures speak.

Spot the transwoman.

How is this fair?

A picture speaks a thousand words. Transwomen in women’s sport
OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
OwningAllMyMistakes · 03/02/2021 22:05

I have absolutely no axe to grind other than fairness and I would say some males who transition are the exception to the rule in their physicality and ability.
I do understand that there will be some either by their advantages may give them an edge but then it’s the the same in all sports that people have advantages.

CaraDuneRedux · 03/02/2021 22:12

I do understand that there will be some either by their advantages may give them an edge but then it’s the the same in all sports that people have advantages.

Why bother having women's sport at all, then? Just have open competition. Sure men will win everything, and women won't win anything, but hey, some people have advantages over other people.

(Honestly, how hard of thinking do people have to be to type this crap about "but some people just have advantages, that's sport for you, shrug"?)

Helmetbymidnight · 03/02/2021 22:16

I do understand that there will be some either by their advantages may give them an edge but then it’s the the same in all sports that people have advantages.

long-winded way to say you hate women.

Lordamighty · 03/02/2021 22:33

@OwningAllMyMistakes

I have absolutely no axe to grind other than fairness and I would say some males who transition are the exception to the rule in their physicality and ability. I do understand that there will be some either by their advantages may give them an edge but then it’s the the same in all sports that people have advantages.
It’s not a level playing field when one competitor is a biological male & the rest are female. It’s not the same as fair competition against competitors of the same sex.
334bu · 03/02/2021 22:55

I have absolutely no axe to grind other than fairness and I would say some males who transition are the exception to the rule in their physicality and ability.
I do understand that there will be some either by their advantages may give them an edge but then it’s the the same in all sports that people have advantages.

The reason that female sport is restricted is because no woman would win anything if they had to compete against males.

Under 15 boys team beat the USA female World Champion team. Schoolboys run faster than female world record holders.
Men have a 60% advantage in power sports..
Fairness means that males should not compete against women.
Some of the examples up thread show this clearly
eg no 46 year old man can run faster than a 20 year old man of a similar athletic background. However, they easily beat women because their male bodies give them an overwhelming advantage.

334bu · 03/02/2021 23:11

Last lap of World Championship mixed 400metre relay. Starts about 12.58
Polish female runner( European record holder) starts with huge lead over three male runners . Just watch what happens.

334bu · 03/02/2021 23:16

Sorry time should be 8.06
Also 7 men not 3. Too much wine.

Helmetbymidnight · 04/02/2021 08:03

i have absolutely no axe to grind

so everyone else has an axe to grind?

other than fairness

if you are championing dismantling women's sport because you want to include men then you don't care about fairness.

how is it you think you do?

Rockinmomma · 04/02/2021 09:59

Anyone else think this should be the next ‘AIBU’?
Or AIBU? Grin

Winesalot · 04/02/2021 10:13

Might give it a week but yes.

Helmetbymidnight · 04/02/2021 10:14

I'll get deleted. I'm so bewildered by these morons who think men should be included in women's sports. I mean, what the actual fuck?

DickKerrLadies · 04/02/2021 10:19

@Helmetbymidnight

I'll get deleted. I'm so bewildered by these morons who think men should be included in women's sports. I mean, what the actual fuck?
'But tall people' seems to be the main argument.
Apollo440 · 04/02/2021 10:24

@Helmetbymidnight

I'll get deleted. I'm so bewildered by these morons who think men should be included in women's sports. I mean, what the actual fuck?
It's exhausting, the constant gaslighting.

But morons about covers it.

Winesalot · 04/02/2021 10:29

@OwningAllMyMistakes

I have absolutely no axe to grind other than fairness and I would say some males who transition are the exception to the rule in their physicality and ability. I do understand that there will be some either by their advantages may give them an edge but then it’s the the same in all sports that people have advantages.
All males who transition will have advantages. A mediocre male sportsperson still should not be competing against females. Just because their skeleton might be a small male skeleton doesn’t mean they don’t have other advantages. More twitch muscles to allow them to jump higher and be faster to react, many other advantages have been picked up.

Plus they have stronger skulls that cause women damage in a head collision.

It isn’t just about fairness, it is about safety. A male who has the ability to run faster will cause greater damage on impact. The leverage their skeleton allows gives any ‘punch’ way more power.

Your ‘all people have advantages’ shows a lack of information. It was recently pointed out that a female swimmer who had the same ‘span’ as Michael Phelps would still never beat him.

And also, it ignores that often males have had more opportunities, better coaching etc than the women they compete with. I have seen this in action every weekend between the boys and girls football teams. This discrimination is still systemic and very prevalent although now acknowledged and being changed.

But no. Male should not be competing. The science is clear it is just being ignored and discredited by those who don’t want to admit it. Of course, the new tactic is to admit it is true biologically and use pleas for kindness anyway from some supposed ‘experts’. (Including one who is winning women’s cycling championships who was an average male cyclist).

Winesalot · 04/02/2021 10:51

I wrote this in answer to a poster who insists that mtf transitioners will never dominate women's sport. I think they meant in numbers ... which is still debatable.

If a girl or woman dies because of another Fallon Fox.... it’s ok. There is only a few so it won’t matter.

If another girl counting on a scholarship to get into university or college loses to a male..... it’s ok... there is not many so be nice. It makes no difference really.

If a GB cycling female loses the spot she was likely to have won for the Olympics because a male champion has transitioned.... it ok... it is only a few. It doesn’t matter over all because transwomen will never dominate women’s sport.

If a rugby player who has broken a coaches foot and is known to ‘fold women opponents like a deck chair’ one day does an illegal tackle and severely harms someone... it’s ok... it is inclusive to include males when they want to play against women despite all the science saying it is negligent to allow it knowing the prevalence of significant brain injury due to female physiology..... transwomen will never dominate women’s sport and there is only a few ...

If a female Kent cricketer has agains missed out on woman player of the season or even a spot on the side because a male uses their superior training, past opportunities and physiology to again smash women’s records using a male size bat against slower bowlers, lighter equipment etc. and while that male continues to perform as a medicocre male on the men’s team they also play in..... it’s ok, it is only a few and they will never dominate women’s sport

So, women are denying access because they have 'an axe to grind' eh?

None of these scenarios are far fetched. Most have occurred or in the case of GB cycling, are likely to occur. Please tell us if any of these fit your definition of fairness or of safety. The other poster I posted in answer to certainly wouldn't answer at all.

It only takes a one or two in each sport or sporting club and the domination starts. At all levels. People who deny this, ultimately either hate women (or believe they are being kind but the result is still the same), or don't give a toss about women's sports..... or both.

Deltoids1 · 04/02/2021 11:01

More people like need to be heard. committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/17022/pdf/

I agree that this needs to be the next AIBU. Perhaps when (if?) the Olympics takes place we can have one each time Laurel Hubbard competes.

NotBadConsidering · 04/02/2021 11:18

@Winesalot

I wrote this in answer to a poster who insists that mtf transitioners will never dominate women's sport. I think they meant in numbers ... which is still debatable.

If a girl or woman dies because of another Fallon Fox.... it’s ok. There is only a few so it won’t matter.

If another girl counting on a scholarship to get into university or college loses to a male..... it’s ok... there is not many so be nice. It makes no difference really.

If a GB cycling female loses the spot she was likely to have won for the Olympics because a male champion has transitioned.... it ok... it is only a few. It doesn’t matter over all because transwomen will never dominate women’s sport.

If a rugby player who has broken a coaches foot and is known to ‘fold women opponents like a deck chair’ one day does an illegal tackle and severely harms someone... it’s ok... it is inclusive to include males when they want to play against women despite all the science saying it is negligent to allow it knowing the prevalence of significant brain injury due to female physiology..... transwomen will never dominate women’s sport and there is only a few ...

If a female Kent cricketer has agains missed out on woman player of the season or even a spot on the side because a male uses their superior training, past opportunities and physiology to again smash women’s records using a male size bat against slower bowlers, lighter equipment etc. and while that male continues to perform as a medicocre male on the men’s team they also play in..... it’s ok, it is only a few and they will never dominate women’s sport

So, women are denying access because they have 'an axe to grind' eh?

None of these scenarios are far fetched. Most have occurred or in the case of GB cycling, are likely to occur. Please tell us if any of these fit your definition of fairness or of safety. The other poster I posted in answer to certainly wouldn't answer at all.

It only takes a one or two in each sport or sporting club and the domination starts. At all levels. People who deny this, ultimately either hate women (or believe they are being kind but the result is still the same), or don't give a toss about women's sports..... or both.

And I’ll add an old post of mine which is similar:

When two athletes were allowed to compete in Connecticut high school athletics, Selina Soule and every other girl whose place was lowered by one or two in every competition these athletes took part were disadvantaged. Same with CeCe Telfer.

Aussie rules has 18 players on each side. When Hannah Mouncey was allowed to play in the lower leagues, one of Mouncey’s teammates sat on the bench each game. Maybe another didn’t make the squad because their place on the bench was taken. All of Mouncey’s teammates were disadvantaged by having to share changing facilities. All of Mouncey’s opponents were disadvantaged by having to tackle Mouncey. Then multiply that by how many teams are in that league. Then add the umpires who were placed in a compromising legal position should any serious injury had happened to a woman. This is hundreds of women.

When Mouncey switched to handball, a woman didn’t get selected to represent Australia at the world championships because Mouncey was in the squad. A woman who made the squad didn’t get to start in the final. All of these women were disadvantaged by having to share changing facilities with Mouncey, something they complained about.

When McKinnon won at the Masters cycling championships, every woman below had their place moved down by one.

When Laurel Hubbard won weightlifting gold in Samoa, Feagaiga Stowers, an 18 year old indigenous Samoan woman, a survivor of abuse, was denied gold at her home games. Every other woman who finished below Hubbard had their place lowered by one. The New Zealand team took 8 weightlifters to those games, 4 men and 4 women. Hubbard was counted as one of the latter. Which meant there was a woman left home back in NZ who didn’t get the chance to compete at the Pacific games. Weightlifters have to compete at a number of certain events to qualify for the Olympics.

When Maxine Blythin won Kent Women’s cricketer of the year, a woman didn’t. When Blythin plays on the women’s team, either local or county, a woman is relegated to 12th woman. When Blythin smashes a smaller, lighter ball over a closer boundary rope, the women who are bowling to Blythin have their bowling averages increased. This is scores of women.

And so on, and so on. Hundreds of women and girls affected negatively already by just a handful of examples of transgender athletes. It doesn’t need to get any bigger, it’s already too big.

Winesalot · 04/02/2021 11:34

Agreed Notbad.

The denial of harm to women is very easy to disprove. It only takes some critical thinking.

And those who say 'there must be SOMEway to do it', cannot accept that the greatest sports scientists have been trying to work out ways to do this and have finally said effectively that it cannot be done. Because, even to use a handicap requires honesty and just who is going to be responsible for keeping these handicapped athletes documented to ensure they are being honest. (and I am not making any comment relating to the delusions that surround an 'identity').

And once you see the analogies being used being debunked constantly, you realise there is many people out there who simply think the 'all people have advantages' message is a really pivotal point, but it is so easily debunked. The 'tall' women have advantages, the 'stocky' women have advantages, the list goes on. I have even seen activists say 'black' women have advantages so why shouldn't 'male' women compete.

It is ludicrous.

Winesalot · 04/02/2021 11:45

@OwningAllMyMistakes

I have absolutely no axe to grind other than fairness and I would say some males who transition are the exception to the rule in their physicality and ability. I do understand that there will be some either by their advantages may give them an edge but then it’s the the same in all sports that people have advantages.
So, an able bodied person should compete with the paralympians because some paralympians have some 'edge' that that able bodied person doesn't? Maybe the best Paralympic athlete can easily win, does that mean that another Paralympic athlete should miss out because

a) they might have an 'advantage' that that able-bodied person doesn't that doesn't negate the overall fact it the competition is protected for people with disabilities to allow them to compete with people within the same protected category.

b) by competing they take a position that another athlete that qualifies under that protected category thereby causing harm.

Because you are fully advocating for opening up all protected categories with your argument here.

And what about a mediocre athlete who is a small adult competing against children who are about the same size? Does that work using your principle?

Or the other way, because I might identify as older than I am, I should be able to compete in the "Master" events because I am a below average athlete for my own age group and Hey, those 80 somethings have the same build and fitness as I do.

What other category would you like to open up using your 'their advantages may give them an edge, but then it's the same in all sports that people have advantages' ?

GaraMedouar · 04/02/2021 13:40

I cannot understand how anybody can argue that male bodies aren’t bigger, stronger, quicker than female bodies . It really is the Emperor’s New Clothes. I watched an interview between Piers Morgan and Owen Jones and Piers asked if it would be fair if Usain Bolt or Floyd Merryweather decided to self id now as women and compete against other women. Owen never replied to that direct question (posed a few times) and kept deflecting.
Even my eldest DS who is a uni student and appears to have been captured by the woke brigade , and believes people can ‘feel like a woman’, and just be nice, even he thinks that sports should be XX and XY split.
Owen kept saying ‘there aren’t many transwomen in sport‘ but that’s because it’s starting to ramp up now. Does he want to wait until men win every women’s title before deciding that maybe it’s gone too far?

Truthlikeness · 04/02/2021 21:40

I played amateur women's football against trans woman a few times. She was stronger, faster and more aggressive than all the other players. Other players backed off tackling her for fear of being injured and it impacted the enjoyment of games.

I trained with her once and I remember her telling me that she never felt worn out after a 90 minute game. At the time I was in awe of her fitness. It was only later I found out she was a trans woman (after she detransitioned) and saw that comment in a different light.

That's the reality of trans women playing women's sports -at any level. They affect female players in many small negative ways. It's not all about gold medals.

334bu · 04/02/2021 21:55

But it could now be all about the money. Argentinian Mara Gomez has deprived a female player of a spot in a top flight women's football team.
44 year old Natalie Van Gogh still earning in a professional cycling team when twenty years older than teammates.

PartyofPun · 04/02/2021 22:03

@OwningAllMyMistakes

I have absolutely no axe to grind other than fairness and I would say some males who transition are the exception to the rule in their physicality and ability. I do understand that there will be some either by their advantages may give them an edge but then it’s the the same in all sports that people have advantages.
Could you explain what you think ‘transition’ means? What does a male have to change to play women’s sports?
andyoldlabour · 05/02/2021 15:09

Quadzilla,

Could be. I will have a more detailed look.
Philippa Yorke is an ex TdF cyclist and incredible climber.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippa_York