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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A picture speaks a thousand words. Transwomen in women’s sport

341 replies

LemonGingerCakes · 23/10/2019 22:23

I've never started a thread like this before, but this is bothering me.

No comments. Just letting the pictures speak.

Spot the transwoman.

How is this fair?

A picture speaks a thousand words. Transwomen in women’s sport
OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
NorthernIrishFeminist · 25/01/2021 21:17

@NecessaryScene1

Just asking - I read somewhere but can't find it. A medical report that says the apparent male advantage, physically, comes before puberty and as early as under 5 years old. Which sounds reasonable since male children appear to be mostly stronger, even if the growth spurt comes with puberty.

Can't help on the report, but this came up in a Save Women's Sports discussion with Linda Blade, Sharron Davies, Emma Hilton and others.

Here's the video, linked to the relevant time:

There is this belief that before puberty the male/female difference is minimal. And this is true, but not in the way most people think.

In fact the difference is smallest just before male puberty. Because women enter puberty earlier on average, girls are closer to boys around the age of 11 because the girls have undergone more development, on average.

But at younger ages, before girls get the early puberty advantage, the average male/female difference is bigger.

So lots of studies show an almost negligible difference just before puberty, increasing after puberty, but that small gap is in part an illusion, as you're comparing totally prepubescent boys to girls who have started maturing.

Interesting point about the timing of the studies not acknowledging and factoring in female and male puberty happening at different ages and how that skews the findings
OwningAllMyMistakes · 25/01/2021 21:51

This reply has been deleted

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Winesalot · 25/01/2021 21:54

If it’s not a thread rehashing old rhetoric about trans people in sport it’s a new thread rehashing rhetoric about trans people in sport same shit different year.

Oh dear. You’ll be very upset then because until males are back to only competing against other males unless it is a mixed or open sport event, women will continue to discuss and organize to protect women’s sport. For females only.

However. If you have a study that refutes the latest studies results that all seem to confirm that males competing against females is unfair and even if those males do not win they have taken a place set aside for a female to participate, please do post it.

Otherwise, I’d recommend reading through the latest batch of studies including just why women have a biological predisposition for brain damaging head injuries in contact sport.

And then come and tell us all exactly where you disagree with those studies without you seeming like you are happy to disregard women’s safety and their sporting achievements.

Biscuitsanddoombar · 25/01/2021 21:56

No one is banning trans people from sport. They are welcome to compete against other people of the same sex

Winesalot · 25/01/2021 21:56

Please do keep going owning. It shows those reading that you actually have no considered points to discuss.

Winesalot · 25/01/2021 22:25

In fact, here is a fresh reminder of why just having ‘human’ sports or non sex segregated sport doesn’t work. And why, just because you know a girl or a woman who is ‘sportier’ than you as a male, it would make absolutely no difference if that girl or woman had to compete with males. There is still a good chance she would lose to mediocre males no matter how hard she trained.

twitter.com/scienceofsport/status/1353410978193551360?s=21

And Ross Tucker also reminds us that world rugby suggested calling men’s rugby ‘open’ or something inclusive, and it was rejected.

As he states, to those trans identifying males who believe inclusivity trumps safety and fairness are participating in that category of sport for an additional reason other than the joy of participation. .... not sure I can say on here without a deletion.

OwningAllMyMistakes · 26/01/2021 11:32

It’s really easy to use old photos to rile up old rhetoric and instigate H##E on a thread and forum for others to follow but how many on here are actually involved with sport in any way ?
How many actually get out beyond their keyboard and do something not just for sport but for their community and are in any way promoting sport or exercise.
The issue isn’t with sport and women being removed by trans participation, it’s with prejudice ,these were the same issues with race and sport only it’s another discrimination.
There hasn’t been any real studies shown with regards to trans participation in sport and there are few that actually win anything but yet such fervour is whipped up.
Perhaps it’s not an issue of trans but of being tall if the alleged trans competitor in cycling wasn’t tall would that even matter ?
As really it’s that persons height in relation to the other competitors that annoys people not that she actually won and did exactly the same and yet you will all use that it’s male Privelige and biologically different but everyone is biologically different from one person to the next.

I saw a post on here yesterday about female head trauma in contact sports 🏈 well in that case stop all contact sports tell Katie Taylor she can’t box anymore or Ronda Rousey that she can’t do MMA anymore or stop children from competing in TaeKwonDo as you want them in cotton wool.

If you really cared about more positive engagement for women in sport then petition the BBC over its sport news coverage.
Petition the organisers of the Tour De France to give the women’s race equal prize money and equal air time.
But I doubt you will do that as that’s a battle your not interested in.

NecessaryScene1 · 26/01/2021 11:42

"these were the same issues with race and sport only it’s another discrimination."

So we had separate black and white competitions with strict race requirements, and then people chose to keep the separate black and white competitions but let people to be able to compete in whichever one they preferred?

I don't remember this. Confused And I don't see any separate black and white competitions with self-ID now. Am I being dense?

Your statement only makes sense if you think there's no reason for separate male+female sports and that they should be combined. Is that what you think?

Kit19 · 26/01/2021 11:47

@OwningAllMyMistakes

It’s really easy to use old photos to rile up old rhetoric and instigate H##E on a thread and forum for others to follow but how many on here are actually involved with sport in any way ? How many actually get out beyond their keyboard and do something not just for sport but for their community and are in any way promoting sport or exercise. The issue isn’t with sport and women being removed by trans participation, it’s with prejudice ,these were the same issues with race and sport only it’s another discrimination. There hasn’t been any real studies shown with regards to trans participation in sport and there are few that actually win anything but yet such fervour is whipped up. Perhaps it’s not an issue of trans but of being tall if the alleged trans competitor in cycling wasn’t tall would that even matter ? As really it’s that persons height in relation to the other competitors that annoys people not that she actually won and did exactly the same and yet you will all use that it’s male Privelige and biologically different but everyone is biologically different from one person to the next.

I saw a post on here yesterday about female head trauma in contact sports 🏈 well in that case stop all contact sports tell Katie Taylor she can’t box anymore or Ronda Rousey that she can’t do MMA anymore or stop children from competing in TaeKwonDo as you want them in cotton wool.

If you really cared about more positive engagement for women in sport then petition the BBC over its sport news coverage.
Petition the organisers of the Tour De France to give the women’s race equal prize money and equal air time.
But I doubt you will do that as that’s a battle your not interested in.

I was Chair of my local sports association for 4 years and helped set up 3 projects to encourage the participation of women as well as people with disabilities at my sports association so yes I do get out from behind my keyboard and do things for womens sport at a grass roots level.

However even if I lay in bed eating chocolate all day long and never moving my lardy arse, nothing would change the facts about male bodies v female bodies in sport

men have 30–40 percent more muscle mass than females
men have longer and thicker bones, with bone density being related to the ability to apply force and withstand injury
the different structure of male and female skeletons mean that the female body is set up to produce less force in running, jumping and throwing.
men can jump around 25 percent higher than women can punch around 30 percent harder, accelerate around 20 percent faster, and throw around 25 percent further.
Men have larger lung capacity, greater cardiac output, and show greater resistance to injury

Honestly Im consistently Hmm that people think we havent looked at the actual facts of the situation. Biology doesnt care about people's feelings!

Giggorata · 26/01/2021 11:50

...

A picture speaks a thousand words. Transwomen in women’s sport
gardenbird48 · 26/01/2021 12:32

Perhaps it’s not an issue of trans but of being tall if the alleged trans competitor in cycling wasn’t tall would that even matter

Which cycling competitor is ‘allegedly’ trans? Afaik both cycling competitors mentioned on here are known to be transgender (the younger one apparently delayed their trans because they thought they would get further in their male career than they did).

There has been a very high quality, inclusive (trans people were part of the study team) study carried out (Emma Hilton/Tommy Lundberg) used to inform the World Rugby rule that it is not safe or fair to include people who have gained the advantages of male puberty in the female sports category.

I read yesterday that approx 5000 males have recorded times at 100m that better or equal the fastest female. There is only a minimal requirement for testosterone reduction from most sports bodies which still leaves the testosterone level of a trans athlete at way above that of a female and have been proven to make very little difference to performance (in fact, with training, it is possible to achieve zero reduction in performance)

I note your implied criticism of women on here for sitting on the sidelines being mean to transgender athletes who have had the benefit of male puberty (any ideas why ftm athletes tend not to be included in male sports?) but you have no idea who we are or what we do.

As pp says in any case, that has absolutely no bearing on the fact that it is unfair and generally unsafe for male bodied people to compete against women. Is that hard to accept?

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

DickKerrLadies · 26/01/2021 12:48

If you don't like pictures, how about some statistics?

boysvswomen.com/

andyoldlabour · 26/01/2021 13:32

"How many actually get out beyond their keyboard and do something not just for sport but for their community and are in any way promoting sport or exercise."

Hi, qualified fitness instructor here, ex racing cyclist, middle distance runner, cricketer and county level badminton player.
I have also extensively studied anatomy & physiology, sports nutrition and safeguarding in sports.
There are clear differences between the male and female bodies, even those who do not compete in sports. Males have higher bone density, more muscle mass, larger skull, larger/higher shoulders, wider thorax, narrower pelvis, longer arms and legs, larger heart and lungs, more oxygen carrying red blood cells leading to greater aerobic capacity. All of which makes the male body faster, stronger aerobically efficient than the female body. That is biology, that is fact. A woman is not a slower version of a man, someone who is not trying as hard (imagine telling Serena Williams she wasn't trying hard enough). From good to elite athletes, they all have one thing in common, regardless of biological sex. They all train incredibly hard, they use the same methods, the same diets.
To allow for the differences between the sexes, sports bodies make allowances - women's volleyball net lower, women's athletics hurdles lower, women's cricket ball lighter and smaller, women's discus, javelin, shot and hammer, all lighter.
Transwomen are male bodied, therefore have built in advantages over women - females. Some transwomen who previously competed as mediocre males, are already dominating in women's sport - Rachel McKinnon, Kate Weatherley, Tiffany Abreu, Hannah Mouncey, Laurel Hubbard, Maxine Blythin, June Eastwood, CeCe Telfer, Andraya Yearwood, Terri Miller.
If this is allowed to continue, then more transwomen will dominate in women's sport and girls and women will feel disinclined to take part in their own sports.

fairplayforwomen.com/biological-sex-differences/

Winesalot · 26/01/2021 13:33

How many actually get out beyond their keyboard and do something not just for sport but for their community and are in any way promoting sport or exercise.

I am involved in sports. I am also a parent of a daughter who is playing community sports. So, yes. I have a direct concern about this and my daughter's sporting future. What does this matter though? Or can a person only work to make things better for others if they are themselves are 'involved'? That is a ridiculous point to make.

The issue isn’t with sport and women being removed by trans participation

This IS an issue of females being put into dangerous situations and not being able to say anything without being labelled as hateful. This IS an issue of females missing out on sporting opportunities due to the inclusion of MALES. Males who can play sport with other MALES. Transwomen are not being excluded from sport, they should be included in the sports for their own sex and not competing against females.

There hasn’t been any real studies shown with regards to trans participation in sport

There is enough studies to show how the benefits of male puberty are not reversed enough to be fair, to be safe. And there are more and more coming through each year. Besides which, why weren't there studies done to prove there is no competitive advantage and no danger to women BEFORE inclusion?

and there are few that actually win

This statement is constantly used. However, a) it is still unfair competitively and dangerous whether they win or not and b) it takes the position of a girl or woman who could be there competing and playing. And girls and women need all the encouragement they can get to be in sport as there is still a sexism battle to be won.

Why do you want to make it even harder, why do you advocate anything that will discourage girls and women in any way?

Transwomen should be encouraged to compete with the sex they are and if they feel they are disadvantaged, create their own teams and competition.

Perhaps it’s not an issue of trans but of being tall if the alleged trans competitor in cycling wasn’t tall would that even matter ?

This is another false equivalence. A 'tall' women will still not have the same benefits of male puberty that a MALE does. A whole team of tall women who train harder than any male at the same level will be unlikely to beat a male at the same level of fitness and expertise. And there is always outliers. And yes, body types do influence sporting outcomes. Of course they do. But it is never fair that a tall woman should have to compete against a male because she's 'tall' so should have a natural advantage.

boysvswomen.com

This site highlights the discrepancy very clearly. If you are determined to never acknowledge the differences, nothing anyone ever comes up with will dissuade you though.

I saw a post on here yesterday about female head trauma in contact sports 🏈 well in that case stop all contact sports tell Katie Taylor she can’t box anymore or Ronda Rousey that she can’t do MMA anymore or stop children from competing in TaeKwonDo as you want them in cotton wool.

Sporting bodies aim to make their sports as safe as possible for women to compete. Your tone is almost identical to the trope being constantly rolled out. It is very tired and has been debunked again by experts. Studies have proven (even the military study with transwomen being assessed over time) that MALES are faster, they are also stronger, they have many advantages that make even transwomen who have lowered their testosterone for several years.

This combination means that women will always be at higher risk when males, however they identify, however much they have lowered their testosterone, are playing contact sport. There are plenty of anecdotal evidence that this is already an issue, but women cannot speak of it for fear of being excluded from their teams.

Already, males playing rugby are experiencing dementia at a young age. This is a scandal unfolding. Studies have proven that women are even more susceptible, so in years to come this will be addressed. So, why would you continue to deny that this is an issue. The magic of reducing testosterone is simply not going to reduce this risk.

Please show us the evidence that it will.

oh. You can't? It isn't available? Well, we know it isn't because World Rugby has already been through this very thoroughly and included trans people in the discussion. Maybe you should read the presentations and how the sports scientists came to the conclusions they did.

Petition the organisers of the Tour De France to give the women’s race equal prize money and equal air time.

As an avid follower of the TdF, there is in fact a group of women who are working towards this now. They race the following day after the men to raise awareness.

But I doubt you will do that as that’s a battle your not interested in.

Only someone ignoring the fact this is a parenting forum would say this. Many on this thread are sporting women in their own right. And many have daughters playing sport.

So, again. Feel free to point your finger of shame at us while we continue to work to secure our daughter's sporting opportunities as well as our own.

To repeat: it is unfair for male who have benefitted from male puberty (studies are also showing that there are benefits for males even before puberty!!) to compete with females. And it is dangerous. It is NOT excluding them from playing sport, it is excluding them from female sports. Just as an able bodied person should not compete in the Paralympics. Just as an adult should not compete with the under 12's.

HPFA · 26/01/2021 13:43

@OwningAllMyMistakes

It’s really easy to use old photos to rile up old rhetoric and instigate H##E on a thread and forum for others to follow but how many on here are actually involved with sport in any way ? How many actually get out beyond their keyboard and do something not just for sport but for their community and are in any way promoting sport or exercise. The issue isn’t with sport and women being removed by trans participation, it’s with prejudice ,these were the same issues with race and sport only it’s another discrimination. There hasn’t been any real studies shown with regards to trans participation in sport and there are few that actually win anything but yet such fervour is whipped up. Perhaps it’s not an issue of trans but of being tall if the alleged trans competitor in cycling wasn’t tall would that even matter ? As really it’s that persons height in relation to the other competitors that annoys people not that she actually won and did exactly the same and yet you will all use that it’s male Privelige and biologically different but everyone is biologically different from one person to the next.

I saw a post on here yesterday about female head trauma in contact sports 🏈 well in that case stop all contact sports tell Katie Taylor she can’t box anymore or Ronda Rousey that she can’t do MMA anymore or stop children from competing in TaeKwonDo as you want them in cotton wool.

If you really cared about more positive engagement for women in sport then petition the BBC over its sport news coverage.
Petition the organisers of the Tour De France to give the women’s race equal prize money and equal air time.
But I doubt you will do that as that’s a battle your not interested in.

I think you're missing the reason why people feel so strongly about it. Have a read of the article below. You'll see that the female runners aren't even mentioned - their needs, their feelings, basic fairness towards them just don't matter. This assumption that the females should automatically give way to the needs of the transgirls involved is deeply sexist and gives an appalling message to all girls.

That's why we get so upset about it. It's not a matter of adding up how many girls will lose out, it's the fact that it's taken for granted that it's completely OK for the girls to lose out.

www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jan/22/transgender-athletes-joe-biden-executive-order

Winesalot · 26/01/2021 13:50

And while you are at it owning want to comment on Emily Bridges and how fair it is to have someone like this now bumping women who had the potential, and will now miss their opportunity to compete for the GB team?

Deltoids1 · 26/01/2021 14:06

@OwningAllMyMistakes

It’s really easy to use old photos to rile up old rhetoric and instigate H##E on a thread and forum for others to follow but how many on here are actually involved with sport in any way ? How many actually get out beyond their keyboard and do something not just for sport but for their community and are in any way promoting sport or exercise. The issue isn’t with sport and women being removed by trans participation, it’s with prejudice ,these were the same issues with race and sport only it’s another discrimination. There hasn’t been any real studies shown with regards to trans participation in sport and there are few that actually win anything but yet such fervour is whipped up. Perhaps it’s not an issue of trans but of being tall if the alleged trans competitor in cycling wasn’t tall would that even matter ? As really it’s that persons height in relation to the other competitors that annoys people not that she actually won and did exactly the same and yet you will all use that it’s male Privelige and biologically different but everyone is biologically different from one person to the next.

I saw a post on here yesterday about female head trauma in contact sports 🏈 well in that case stop all contact sports tell Katie Taylor she can’t box anymore or Ronda Rousey that she can’t do MMA anymore or stop children from competing in TaeKwonDo as you want them in cotton wool.

If you really cared about more positive engagement for women in sport then petition the BBC over its sport news coverage.
Petition the organisers of the Tour De France to give the women’s race equal prize money and equal air time.
But I doubt you will do that as that’s a battle your not interested in.

Don’t come in here telling us that we don’t know Jack shit about sports. Some of us have been working in our sport at grassroots level of women’s sport for years and we’ve also seen the damage done by these so called inclusive policies that actually discriminate women on the ground. I could tell you stories of how women have been hounded out of their sport by the governing body because they have raised safeguarding issues of boys who identify as trans in girls changing room, the women of faith that don’t come anymore because there’s a chance someone’s with XY chromosomes may turn up for a women only session and I could tell you stories of how women volunteers have taken their free labour away from the sports they love because some entitled prick of an administrator has been on a Stonewall training course and now that sport is full of men. And if I sound angry, it’s because I am. I fought for years for women and girls just to be able to set foot on a pitch and now you wokies just want to destroy what we fought for! No.
UrsulaVdL · 26/01/2021 15:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

andyoldlabour · 26/01/2021 15:16

Winesalot

I am still watching the Bridges affair with interest. Bridges is on a cycling forum which I contribute to on a daily basis.

Winesalot · 26/01/2021 15:18

It really is a recycling of old tropes with no evidence or substance presented behind their points. We can tick them off.

  • You probably not involved anyway so you are doing this to be hateful.
  • It is just prejudice fuelling this, there is no conflict in women and girls opportunities or safeguarding here at all.
  • No 'real' studies that include transwomen sports people (missing the fact that even the study from the military tracing performance of transmen and transwomen agrees with the other studies, but maybe J Harper's friends who reported their decrease in performance should be consider, Harper being trans and all. Despite there being no rigourness to the data and no control.).
  • What about 'tall' women, or muscly women, or women with more lung capacity, or x women? Surely these women should not be able to compete either because they have biological advantages.
  • Oh, and contact sports! Well, anyone willing to risk their lives playing against the best women will be at the same risk if they played against males who have had benefits of male puberty! People playing against their own category should be wrapped in cotton wool if you are so worried about contact sport.....
  • What else are you doing to support women's sport and safeguarding except for spreading hate?

I think we have not yet seen,

  • women and girls just try harder, if you trained more you will win against males.
  • sport should be open category with no provision for women at all, because it is just about participation. It shouldn't be about winning, that is aggressive and selfish.
  • it is only a 'few' women and girls effected, they can suck it up because at least everyone has had an opportunity to play a sport that they love and feel 'included' in the gender they identify as. (may have had that one to be honest. I have not gone back and read them all again).
  • why do people bring up that 40+ year old males can beat young females in the prime of their sporting careers?
Winesalot · 26/01/2021 15:22

I am very keen to see what decisions are made in GB Cycling. It will highlight so many very real and not imagined issues.

OTOH andy ... no one on this thread has any actual interest or experience to offer in sport ...Wink

NorthernIrishFeminist · 26/01/2021 15:51

I had barriers to continuing the sport I was good as because I was female, it was hugely frustrating. I don’t want other girls to have the same happen to them because they are female. It has had a lifelong detrimental impact on my participation and enjoyment of sport.

NorthernIrishFeminist · 26/01/2021 15:58

But i get the impression our real life experience as females is only relevant if it can be used to negate what we have to say by saying ‘it’s too personal’

It doesnt matter what experiences we share about how it impacts us personally posters like the one making false statements about women’s experiences on this thread will always say women are in the wrong when they say ‘no’

Winesalot · 26/01/2021 16:08

You are probably correct northern. It is always ‘scaremongering’ or something to negate it. This poster has probably even missed the latest direction the activists have taken by admitting there is some advantages but ... it is just a few of us males and it is important on a social science level to ignore the biological and sports sciences. Written by one of males winning medals against women.

Be nice women. Your own mental health is meaningless compared to mine in other words.

Quadzilla · 26/01/2021 17:05

I’m watching the Bridges situation with interest too. I have various friends in women’s racing who are keeping their eyes and ears open.

I believe Covid has scuppered the racing calendar in 2020 but it’ll be worth keeping an eye on racers when (if) they start this year.

Bridges will pose a significant challenge for BC and UK Sport in general. Bridges will be a tall, record breaking example of how fucked up these policies are. And I hope whatever woman is flicked off the team to make way for Bridges takes BC to court. We’ll have her back and will happily dig her too.