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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men only job

163 replies

SuperMeerkat · 12/10/2019 14:38

First time post, long time lurker. I spotted a job that was for men only, sexual health clinic support worker. Advert said ‘exempt under gender discrimination laws etc’ What would happen if a woman applied saying she identified as a man? Or if you were non-binary like I think Sam Smith is? I don’t want the job, just wondering really.

OP posts:
SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 15/10/2019 21:12

What if you are genetically and biologically male, and are an autogynephile who gets their sexual kicks out of making women feel uncomfortable by intruding into their single sex spaces while dressed as a woman - and you are gleeful at the thought of self-ID because you will be able to shriek transphobia if any of those hateful women object to you using them and their sex segregated spaces to get your rocks off? Or you are simply a male bodied predator who will use self-ID to get access to women and girls who are in a vulnerable state?

I am willing to bet that there are more predatory and/or autogynephiliac males than people who are genetically female but male bodied.

OhHolyJesus · 15/10/2019 21:18

99 please do not conflate self ID with people who have gender dysphoria and with people who have disorders of sexual development.

Even the people in the video you provided up thread didn't do this.

No one is going to rape me with their undescended testes.

99luftballons99 · 15/10/2019 21:59

@SDTG then you're a pervert and should be treated as any other man who harasses women. I've never heard of that before, just googled it and it seems like a rare thing. In all my life I've never seen anyone like that in toilets or anything. I know someone earlier used someone as an example, I can't remember their name Jonathan/Jessica something but again it seems such an unusual thing and you can find individual examples of anything to prove a point. I read an article today about someone adopting a six year old who was actual a 22 year old dwarf who tried to kill their whole family!! Can't use that as an example to talk about all people who are dwarfs can you!

@OhHolyJesus it's really not about undescended testes, intersex people can have all forms of male or female genetalia. Someone could have a penis but be female.

Look all my life people have called me a freak and a pervert. Someone beat me up on a date because I told him about my story and he said I was "trying to trick him into sex with a tranny". People assume I'm trans and by some peoples ( but not mine)definition I am. People assuming that we're dangerous because we're different. Assuming that all people that self ID are trying to abuse women means

There was someone on this thread with actual experience working with women who have been raped and you all were pretty horrible to her to the point she has left Mumsnet lol. I don't think you're interested in my experience or hers but just want to find reasons to back up what you already think.

OhHolyJesus · 15/10/2019 22:19

@99luftballons99 Pineapple was clear that TWAW, it's ok to challenge that, particularly in the context of this thread which refers to KW and the dangers of self ID in in that she referred to her job a fair bit in her posts.

The intersex thing - sorry I'm just not going to use that word - people who have been born with a disorder of sexual development, their sex organs did not develop in the usual, normal biological way, if someone is missing a womb or their penis is small and appears to be a clitoris...I feel sorry for them. I feel sad and sorry that they have had this terrible misfortune and I wish them all the best...however their chromosome are either one thing or another. They are either male or female. You can have extra chromosomes or missing chromosomes but biology is binary.

I say this as someone who isn't a geneticist, an endocrinologist or even as a medical doctor. I have no experience whatsoever in this area, but I have done some reading on the subject, probably not as much as you, but I know enough to understand this.

If Alex Drummond comes into the ladies loos with his beard and his earrings and his penis (tucked, but it's there) I would scream.

If a taller than average woman comes in I wouldn't. She might not have a womb, she might have a micro penis, but I would be able to tell whether I was under threat, probably without even turning around. I don't think I would be unusual in that.

Returning to the OP for a moment, there are some very rational, obvious reasons why a man should get a job supporting other men and why that role should not go to a woman.

I don't care if that man is gay, has never been in a relationship, has ginger hair, a micro penis or a sixth finger on his left hand, as long as he has skills and experience, it's all fine. They ask for men to apply, so woman do not waste their time as a woman is not required.

Maybe we should start having lie detector tests at interviews and chromosome testing to be sure?

99luftballons99 · 15/10/2019 22:37

@OhHolyJesus biological sex isn't binary. I don't know what reading you've done but the NHS literally tell you this
www.gp.brightonandhoveccg.nhs.uk/new-thinking-about-gender
I could link to so many more articles but there are just a couple
www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/opinion/sex-biology-binary.amp.html
www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

I also don't need you to feel sorry for me. I feel sorry for you to think the way you do.

I have no idea what problem you have with the word intersex?! Considering that's what I and most other intersex people want to be called!!

FWRLurker · 16/10/2019 04:51

99luft

I’m afraid you’re mistaken. Biological sex is indeed binary in mammals. If you are of the sex which (assuming nothing goes wrong developmentally) would produce ova and could gestate young, you are female. If you are the sex which (again assuming all development were normal) would produce sperm and can ejaculate semen, you are male.

You are perhaps thinking of secondary characteristics typical of each sex which indeed are bimodally distributed.

But a tall woman is no less female than a short one. A man with a micropenis is precisely as male as a man with a magnum. And none of this has to do with personality - it’s entirely unrelated, except to the extent that having been recognized as male or female, we are then socialized into particular sex role stereotypes (“genders”).

Now, what about the various intersex conditions you asked? Well they each are specific and different and have well known and understood mechanisms of biological action.

First to get chromosomes out of the way, it is very simple. If someone has an active SRY gene (the Y linked “male trigger” gene) and one X chromosome, that person will be a standard run of the mill male. If someone has two X chromosomes and no active SRY gene, they will be a standard female.

If someone is XO or XY with an inactive SRY gene they will be a sterile female, these conditions are known as Turner and Swyer syndrome respectively. Such individuals are observed to be female from birth but are infertile (cannot produce ova). Certain other attributes and health issues go along with each condition.

or XXY or XX with a SRY translocation to another chromosome, that individual will have Klinefelter syndrome and will he observed to be male. Klinefelter men can have trouble with fertility but some are still fertile.

Then we have CAIS which is somewhat similar to Swyer. These XY individuals cannot use androgens so like Swyer women will be sterile and appear female from birth. They are XY so if nothing had gone wrong further down (with their androgen receptors), they would have developed male. Instead they have female anatomy and will be observed to be female.

Then there are a variety of disorders that can affect males leading to differences in genitalia. Sometimes in older days their genitals were mistaken for female genitals and horrific surgeries were attempted to “correct” things. Now it is standard in developed nations to do more sophisticated tests throughout early development to ascertain the child’s biological sex if that is in question. Meanwhile the child’s anatomy should be left alone, and there’s no need to “raise” an infant in a particularly masculine or feminine way based on their sex in any case. I assume we agree on that at least!

Hormonal Disorders like PCOS only effect females and absolutely can lead to a lot of very specific fertility and pain issues in the women who have them (in addition to some superficially masculinized traits like facial hair) so it’s a bit rude to insist that all so called “intersex” conditions are completely healthy (or at least it’s wrong to deny others experiences in this regard).

Also, there’s nothing wrong with someone who is born with a disorder or disability, but that does not mean it is not a disorder! If I am born blind or deaf due to a mutation in a gene, that describes a genetic disorder. It’s not an insult.

OhHolyJesus · 16/10/2019 07:48

@99luftballons99 we do indeed agree that surgery on children who have DSD (or have gender dysphoria) should not be performed.

Thank you for writing all that out and I have read similar explanations elsewhere from Claire Graham.

mrkhvoice.com/index.php/2019/07/23/is-there-such-a-thing-as-intersex-genitalia/

I take issue with intersex as it has been added to the LGBT and as T is entirely different from the LGB, the I differs further. I assume we can agree that Intersex/DSD is not an identity or a sexuality and it is an extremely rare medical condition. To clarify, I feel sorry for anyone who is born with Down's syndrome, a cancerous testitical (and ex boyfriend), a cleft palate or frankly anything that they grow up with and causes them physical or emotional difficulty. I don't pity you, I just hope you have a full and happy life which is completely possible. To express sympathy shouldn't be insulting, it was not meant as a condescending comment.

We also agree that gender is sex-based stereotypes created in society. As mammals we have either male or female and DSD is extremely rare but nevertheless we should all try to educate ourselves about it and be supportive and understanding.

To return to the OP post again, a man with DSD could apply for the job but a woman should not.

(A man with gender dysphoria could but a woman who thinks she is a man should not.)

OhHolyJesus · 16/10/2019 07:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

99luftballons99 · 16/10/2019 08:42

@FWRLurker yeah i know the science thanks but you've literally just explained why sex is not binary lol. If there are variations then it's not binary it's a spectrum!!! Binary literally means systems where it's either 0 or 1. As soon as you can have 0.1 or 0.2 etc then it becomes a spectrum! Your biological sex is made up of more than one thing, medical experts agree on this and there are 5 factors present at birth that determine biological sex, it's not just your chromosomes but your hormones and all your secondary sex characteristics. If sex were biologically binary, intersex people wouldn't exist yet we are as common as red heads lol. Doctors told my mum at birth they didn't know what sex I was, of they couldn't work it out based on everything they knew then surely it's not that simple lol!!

@ohholyjesus I'm brining it up because firstly as far as I know no one else here is intersex or transgender so it felt like there needed to be at least a little representation lol. But also if we can accept biology isn't binary or at least isn't straightforward then that means it's easier to accept gender isn't binary or straightforward! If we can accept that peoples differences are natural and to be expected then maybe we can stop seeing everyone 'outside the norm' as being threats! The post went really quickly from people asking about an employment issue to people talking about rapists, sex offenders, liars and manipulators, etc. That's what happens when we don't understand people, we assume they are out to get us! I'm just trying to bring some perspective from a different angle!

OhHolyJesus · 16/10/2019 09:10

@99luftballons99 again you are using gender and not gender identity. I no longer use the word gender as it has lost all meaning, sex is binary, DSD exists yes.

Whether they are in this thread or not I don't know but there are a fair fee people on MN who think they are the opposite sex or have children who think they are the opposite sex.

I think Claire Graham is on here and she has DSD, being that it's anonymous it's hard to tell.

Did you have a chromosome test at birth? What DSD condition do you have? I ask as you brought it up.

OhHolyJesus · 16/10/2019 09:18

FWR explains the DSD conditions that a male or female can have. On/off. Yes/no. Male/female. 0/1. Binary.

You can be a man with a DSD condition or a female with a DSD condition.

For someone who says the are 'Intersex' I would hope you would understand that. What did the doctors tell* you 99?*

99luftballons99 · 16/10/2019 11:42

@ohholyjesus, so you think the NHS is wrong, the world health organisation is wrong, all people who define themselves as intersex are wrong, charities and organisations that represent intersex people are wrong, I as an intersex person am wrong.... Hmmm that is some special kind of cherry picking there!!! You can have variations if sex is binary, there are many variations and therefore not binary!!! I'm definitely not going to talk to you about my medical history as this isn't exactly a safe space lol but many people do share their stories online if you're feeling nosy.

Fraggling · 16/10/2019 13:00

So you point is that

Sex is not binary throughout the mamalian and most of the animal and plant kingdom
(how do zookeepers know which animals to put together to breed?)
Intersex exists and is proof that sex is not binary
(even though it's rare)
So no one really knows who is male and who is female
So women's spaces should be open to all
Including perfectly ordinary penis men

I also wonder how the animal kingdom knows how to function. Male and female shrews know that the difference is. Ants. Ducks. Elephants. Also human toddlers. Apparently for adult humans though it's so very mysterious. It isn't though is it. 99.9999 % of people in the world know what male female man woman boy girl mean.

It's silly.

Fraggling · 16/10/2019 13:03

Seems to me the nhs knows what sex is...

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/29/male-nhs-doctors-earn-17-more-than-their-female-peers

OhHolyJesus · 16/10/2019 13:39

@99luftballons99

I am not saying that I think the NHS et al are wrong. I have no issue with anyone stating they are intersex, but I take issue with what you are saying.

You say that sex is not binary, so how many sexes (not genders) are there? You appear to be saying that a female (or male) with DSD is a new, different type of biological sex and that there is a small number of the global population who are neither male or female, is that right?

I'm fascinated by this and yes, it could be considered nosy, I have read a handful of personal stories of both men and women who live with a DSD condition. I like learning about new things I have never known about, I have a curious mind and like taking to people (and experts) in whatever field of study a topic relates to.

I appreciate that you do not want to share medical history, even anonymously, but someone who has DSD do you think that you are neither male or female but something else entirely? Something in between? Inter-sex?

bd67th · 16/10/2019 13:39

Also bd67th, what are you on about?!?!

The reality that noone male can be made pregnant by a rapist.

How about women who are raped bit can not have children???

Do these women know that they cannot have children? Many infertile women don't know that they are infertile until they start TTC. So an infertile woman could be raped and fear pregnancy, in a way that no male would.

Because of their age,

Age isn't a guarantee of infertility. Girls have given birth as young as five, conceiving at age four. The oldest mother via unassisted conception was 59.

that they are on birth control, that the rapist used a condom,

These can fail.

they were anally raped,

Semen can spill across the perineum after anal sex to enter the vagina and cause pregnancy, it only takes one drop. The rapist can pull out of the anus and enter the victim's vagina and she runs that risk throughout the rape.

they are infertyle, etc etc etc?!?!

Does she know that she's infertile?

It's not just about the possibility of pregnancy, but the fear of forced pregnancy. No male fears pregnancy.

haXXor · 16/10/2019 14:22

99luftballons99 Sex, in the one respect that really counts, is a boolean with a null option. You can have "releases sperm", "releases ova", or "releases no gametes".

Gametes are the only arbiter of sex that count at baby-making time, which is what gametes are for. Other stuff, like breast size, penis length, hypospadias, etc might well be affected by five chromosomes, but in reproductive terms they are window-dressing.

With the people who release no gametes, the diagnostic path to determine why will vary based on sex, as explained by at least one PP.

haXXor · 16/10/2019 14:30

Someone beat me up on a date because I told him about my story and he said I was "trying to trick him into sex with a tranny".

Flowers This was male violence though. Women, including "T**Fs", are not responsible for male violence. Men alone are responsible for their appalling behaviour.

People assume I'm trans

And placing "I" under the rainbow umbrella will only add to that conflation of two unrelated things.

Fraggling · 16/10/2019 14:45

Yes who added the I and why?

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer · 16/10/2019 17:10

I read an article today about someone adopting a six year old who was actual a 22 year old dwarf who tried to kill their whole family!!

Youve been misinformed...thats complete bollocks and the plot to a film called The Orphan

There have been updated articles about it

stealthsquirrelnutkin · 16/10/2019 17:15

Yes who added the I and why?

I know that Jessica Yaniv is very keen on claiming "intersex" having told the human rights tribunal that they have both female and male genitalia, and having their mother confirm to the same tribunal that they began menstruating at 13. Based on that I have a feeling the why is quite easy to deduce, finding out who first came up with the idea would be harder to ascertain.

OhHolyJesus · 16/10/2019 17:47

I read an article today about someone adopting a six year old who was actual a 22 year old dwarf who tried to kill their whole family!!

With respect, a person with drawfism has limbs that are a different proportion to a child's so this is quite any easy one to call out.

(I can't watch horror films with dwarfs since Don't Look Now.)

OhHolyJesus · 16/10/2019 19:03

Sorry, bold fail!

Has 99 left us? I really want to know how many biological sexes there are!

99luftballons99 · 16/10/2019 19:04

I'm actually so shocked at @bd67th comment and how no one is disagreeing with her?!?! It's like you can say anything as long as you hate trans people!!! Are you seriously saying if a 5 year old girl is raped that is worse than if a 5 year old boy is raped because of the possiblity of her getting pregnant???? Is no one else going to question this????? I'm absolutely lost for words.

I sent a link to an NHS article stating sex is not binary and was quoted back a random guardian article... I've hit a brick wall, you guys will just hear what you want to back up your own beliefs. I'm done, you've won your space back there's now no one else in here with beliefs any different from yours. Hope that feels safer for you.

Oh and

metro.co.uk/2019/09/24/mum-abandoned-adopted-girl-9-claims-really-22-wanted-kill-family-10797257/

littlbrowndog · 16/10/2019 19:10

It’s not beliefs. It’s science 🤦‍♀️

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