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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men only job

163 replies

SuperMeerkat · 12/10/2019 14:38

First time post, long time lurker. I spotted a job that was for men only, sexual health clinic support worker. Advert said ‘exempt under gender discrimination laws etc’ What would happen if a woman applied saying she identified as a man? Or if you were non-binary like I think Sam Smith is? I don’t want the job, just wondering really.

OP posts:
Fraggling · 13/10/2019 12:10

'Through my work I know sex offenders are disproportionately likely to be heterosexual men'

Gay men are at a population level less likely percentage wise to be sex offenders than heterosexual men? That's fascinating. I've not heard that before.

Do you have any stats to back that up?

Fraggling · 13/10/2019 12:13

What do you think should have happened to Karen?

She needs protection and a voice.

Other bedicked people are currently incarcerated with women in prisons around the world btw.

It was before the victorians I think that things were changed at women's prisons. They were free brothels basically. The women not consenting obviously. Putting men back in, feels a tad regressive. At least they aren't inviting men in though. As far as I know anyway.

Pineapplemonkey86 · 13/10/2019 15:27

I don't think Karen White should have been allowed to transfer to a woman's prison due to her criminal history. I think this is the case for anyone who has history of sexual violence against women.

A lot of rape and sexual assault against homosexuality men is perpetrated by men who identify as heterosexual. This is not surprising when you consider that rape is less about sexual gratification than it is about power, control and domination. I'm out atm so don't have a lot of studies to link to but after a quick Google:

The vast majority of male offenders who sexually abuse or assault other men identify themselves as heterosexual. Some offenders target males simply because it gives them a greater feeling of dominance, power and control than abusing a woman. Sexual assault is usually much more about violence and anger than it is about lust or sexual attraction. The vast majority of males who target boys for sexual abuse aren’t gay.
aasas.ca/support-and-information/men-and-sexual-assault/

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 13/10/2019 15:42

Ignoramuses? Ignorami? Confused

@Pineapplemonkey86 - self-ID is already harming biological women - Karen White is a good example. So is Jonathan Yanniv, who lurks in Ladies’ loos taking pictures with young girls in the background, and musing on Twitter about whether they could offer to ‘help’ a young girl,insert her first tampon. Then there is Women’s sport, where a natal male is taking Women’s world records in cycling, and others are winning all the medals in races. And what about the lesbians who are being told by trans women who have a ‘lady dick’ instead of a penis Hmm that they should get over their genital preferences/hang ups and that they can learn to cope with penetrative sex with these male-bodied trans women who are, apparently, lesbians.

Nope - you are right - no-one is suffering or being disadvantaged in any way because of self-ID. Well - no biological males are - which is pretty much the same thing, in their minds.

MIdgebabe · 13/10/2019 15:52

Transwomen commit sexual offences at the same rate as men and at a much higher rate than women.

The evidence comes from the uk prison population. Hence for areas of life where women are given some safeguards, those safeguards Must be on the basis of sex not identity or gender.

Yes transwomen get attacked. Yes that is sad. There is however no evidence that they suffer more violence than men in general. ( Excluding those who take to prostitution) we know men suffer from violence at the hands of other men.

women are no more likely to want to give up their safeguards to transwomen than to men in general . Because transwomen behave like men.

Given all that, why should transwomen be classed as women again?

OhHolyJesus · 13/10/2019 15:59

Anyone who refers to Karen White as she or her tells you all you need to know about where this person puts women in their particular version of feminism.

Knewmee · 13/10/2019 16:17

Men who identify as women have benefitted from male privilege throughout their lives, and continue to do so- simply look at the vast influence and financial clout their campaign groups have and the deferential way in which they are treated, the sycophantic press coverage, the woman of the year awards, etc. So, yes, transwomen are privileged in ways that women are not. Because female oppression is rooted in biology, and ..... transwomen do not have female biology. Never have, never will.

The OP is absolutely not pointless as Pineapple suggested. To understand how a law works you need to stress test it against a huge range of situations, some real and some hypothetical. It is a vital part of effective legal analysis.

On the OP, the Equality Act permits this job to be offered to a man only, and to exclude people who simply identify as men. This is about men’s privacy and dignity and should be allowed, just as women should have their privacy and dignity respected.Jobs like this are about providing care, support, and medical help, often to vulnerable and disadvantaged people, in situations of great stress and unhappiness - not about validating the feelings of applicants.

OhHolyJesus · 13/10/2019 16:27

To your point pineapple it doesn't matter how someone 'identifies' a crime is a crime is a crime.

Men are men
Women are women

Sexuality or what someone thinks they are doesn't come into.

Gay male prisoners are not kept in separate prisons from heterosexual male prisoners.

Men who rape other men, might not be gay or think of themselves as gay, frankly it makes no difference, if they raped someone they are a rapist.

Men and women are entitled to privacy, dignity and single sex spaces and for this purpose the job ad can state that only men need apply.

pineapple86 · 13/10/2019 19:46

I work for an organisation that only employs women. I understand what the OP was asking and was initially why I opened the thread. However, instead of it being an actual conversation it turned into an opportunity for people to spread their bigoted views that have no basis in evidence or fact.

Yes of course you will be able to find individual examples of transgender people committing sexually violent crimes, there will be evil acts in all walks of life. I could tell you some utterly horrific stories of women being sexually abused by other women, including children abused by their own mothers. Do I take these examples and make sweeping generalisations about women, or mothers? Of course not. Does the fact that these cases are not 'the norm' make them any less horrific and traumatising for the victims? Of course not.

"Transwomen commit sexual offences at the same rate as men and at a much higher rate than women" Where on earth did you get this statistic from? Everything I have read on the subject says the opposite.

Comparing transgender women to perverts lurking in women's toilets taking pictures of children is ludicrous and so damaging. The amount of hate crime and discrimination transgender women experience is tragic and perpetuating myths that trans people are dangerous, perverted and a threat to society legitimising these crimes and discrimination. To say transgender women are privileged is laughable. They may not have had the same experiences as cis gender women but there have certainly not experienced what cis gender men experience.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/key_facts_and_findings-_transgender_0.pdf

Throughout history whenever there is a surge forward in equal rights there is a backlash. History will not look fondly on these views spouted here, just like it does not look favourably on people who were convinced all gay men were predatory paedophiles or that marriage should be an exclusively heterosexual institution.

transequality.org/what-experts-say

Fraggling · 13/10/2019 19:58

'I don't think Karen White should have been allowed to transfer to a woman's prison due to her criminal history. I think this is the case for anyone who has history of sexual violence against women.'

So a woman who sexually assaulted another woman would need to go in a men's prison.

Uh huh.

Fraggling · 13/10/2019 20:02

Oh just seen latest post

Bingo card list of why men need to be allowed anywhere women are vulnerable.

Including the classic, women are sexual predators as well so it's silly for women to be cautious around men.

Pineapplemonkey86 · 13/10/2019 20:20

I believe in prison reform as our justice system is woefully inadequate and as part of that I don't believe you should have people with a history of sexual violence should be in general population. That is part of a much wider conversation.

Transgender women are not men. Do you think a transgender woman who has lived as a woman for several years should be in a male prison?

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 13/10/2019 20:56

Jonathan Yanniv - the pervert lurking in the ladies, taking photos IS a trans woman, @pineapple86 - I couldn’t remember their ‘female’ name when I wrote the post.

Dr Rachel McKinnon is a trans woman who was a mediocre cyclist when competing as a male, but has won a world record now they are identifying as female.

There is a person working in the City of London who is biologically male but identifies as female some days - and has won a woman in business award despite identifying as female only part time!

this Quillette article talks about the male bodied, violent criminals who are identifying as female and being put into women’s prisons.

This section of the article was particularly shocking to me:

”Matthew Harks recently was released from the Grand Valley Institution for Women in Ontario. He is a serial pedophile who has been convicted of three sexual assaults against girls under the age of 8. He has claimed to have abused 60 girls and to have committed 200 offenses. A 2006 psychiatric assessment of Harks maintained that he has an “all-encompassing preoccupation with sexually abusing underage girls.” Like Laboucan, Harks has undergone SRS, but this has not stopped him from facing multiple accusations of harassment and assault while incarcerated in a women’s prison. In 2016, the Calgary Herald reported that Harks was potentially facing charges for “three alleged offences that took place recently while [Harks] was in custody: assault, unlawful confinement and sexual assault.” The Vancouver Sun has reported that Harks has assaulted two female inmates who were “childlike in appearance.”

The commonly held belief that a castrated male offender poses minimal threat to females is a myth. There is certainly no rational reason why a male serial predator should be housed with women, many of whom have a history of being abused by men. Offenders are sent to prison as punishment. They are not sent to prison to be punished; and locking these women in with violent men is cruel and unusual punishment. It is well established that men and women have vastly different patterns of criminality. It is a basic fact that men are physically stronger than women, and that they regularly take advantage of this fact in every imaginable context to dominate and abuse women.

On September 17, 2019, a grievance was filed by a formerly incarcerated Indigenous woman who maintains that CSC staff were aware that she was being harassed by Harks during her incarceration at Grand Valley, and that they failed to intervene. She has a history of childhood sexual abuse that was perpetrated by a male; and so her confinement with Harks, and the failure of CSC to relocate her, was deeply triggering. She is citing multiple violations of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act.

Harks’ alleged harassment of this woman (a copy of whose grievance I have in my possession) included following her around, as well as telling her she was the reason he was at Grand Valley. On one occasion, he reportedly told her he was “horny.” On another, this convicted pedophile told her she had a “young spirit.” She alleges he met her outside the washroom and asked if she was menstruating. She recognized this continual disrespect of her boundaries as typical grooming behaviour (priming for abuse), and this had a negative effect on her mental health. She became “very fearful, and spiraled into a trauma response with nightmares, sleeplessness and flashbacks.” As there is no trauma therapy available in prison, the reduced functioning she experienced as a result of her symptoms led to threats of segregation from the rest of the prison population. She is citing discrimination on the basis of sex and Indigeneity. (Despite comprising only about 4.3% of Canadian women, Indigenous women make up 40% of federally incarcerated women.)”

Fraggling · 13/10/2019 21:02

You haven't answered the question at all, pineapple.

Yes prison reform would be great. Many people are at risk of violence including sexual violence.

You believe Karen White is female. A person with a dick who used that dick to rape a woman. Then sexually assaulted a number of women while locked in with them. This is the behaviour of a man. Not a woman. Women don't have penises. It's not tricky.

Saying oh prison reform, oh women do it too, is all wriggling around.

Be honest. You believe kw is a woman, a woman who committed rape with their penis, and that they should be treated the same as other women. Own it.

Pineapplemonkey86 · 13/10/2019 21:36

I don't know enough about Karen White to comment on their gender, all I know is they had a history of violent sexual assault against women and were allowed to continue to do so in prison. A tragedy that should not have been allowed to happen and there is much to learn from as many many mistakes were made. I'm not wriggling anything and have spent my entire career standing up for women's rights and supporting victims of sexual violence. What I am saying is you can defend women and be a proactive feminist without being transphobic.

I'm not going to continue this debate as I am well aware I won't change the minds of anyone with such deep rooted hatred against a marginalised group, my commenting was to give voice to a different perspective for anyone else reading as trans ally.

To sum up, in my opinion there needs to be expert assessment, evaluation and appropriate for prisoners who are trans or who say they are trans to ensure they are in the right place.
There will always be a small number of people from any given population that do evil things. You cannot make sweeping generalisations based on these individuals, you have to look at statistics, trends and evidence.
Trans people are a marginalised group that experience violence, discrimination and prejudice on a daily basis. The opinions expressed in this forum validate this and legitimise what should be condemned.
Women's rights and transgender women's rights are not in opposition with each other.
Our understanding sex and gender is, thankfully, evolving and growing. Some parts of society desperately need to catch up.

Inebriati · 13/10/2019 21:40

You report any hatred to Mumsnet and they'll delete the post.

Women have hard won sex based rights. We have them because we need them, and we don't appreciate other people giving them away and minimizing the risks.

OhHolyJesus · 13/10/2019 22:08

Women are a marginalised group that experience violence, discrimination and prejudice on a daily basis. The opinions expressed in this forum validate this and legitimise what should be condemned.

Women's rights and transgender women's rights are not in direct opposition with each other.

Our understanding sex and gender is, disolving and growing. Some parts of society desperately need to catch up.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 13/10/2019 22:13

From The Guardian:

“White entered the UK prison system as transgender. However, despite dressing as a woman, the 52-year-old had not undergone any surgery and was still legally a male. She was also a convicted paedophile and on remand for grievous bodily harm, burglary, multiple rapes and other sexual offences against women.”

They were placed in a woman’s prison, @Pineapplemonkey86 - that is a fact, so I don’t think it takes a massive logical leap to conclude that, according to them, their gender is female. No assumptions necessary.

But they are physically still male, and before they decided they were transgender, they were, as the quote from the Guardian states, a rapist and paedophile. These are also facts.

This person has used self-ID to be placed in the Women’s Estate, alongside vulnerable women, who they went on to assault. Again - facts.

Does that give you enough information to comment, or are you still on the fence about this charming individual?

I agree with @Inebriati - I don’t want people giving away my hard won, sex based protections and rights.

PetraDelphiki · 13/10/2019 22:19

This would be fascinating if a self is trans women applied...of the correct legal sex as the advert, but identifying as female. But would have to be considered for the job as otherwise they would be suffering discrimination based on their trans status (as correctly compared to a man who didn’t identify as trans)...now that would be a can of worms wouldn’t it!

Voice0fReason · 13/10/2019 22:19

"Transwomen commit sexual offences at the same rate as men and at a much higher rate than women" Where on earth did you get this statistic from? Everything I have read on the subject says the opposite.

Prison numbers
fairplayforwomen.com/prison-data-confirmed/

PetraDelphiki · 13/10/2019 22:20

Self id that should say!

Pineapplemonkey86 · 14/10/2019 08:45

Your arguments are completely full of logical fallacies. So because you have read about one person claiming to be transgender who is a threat to women, all transgender people are a threat to women? So because I have read about one mother who abused her child does that mean all mothers are a threat to their children? Comparing Karen White to the majority of transgender women is like comparing all women to Myra Hindeley or all Muslims to Osama Bin Laden. Yes these people exist but they are not representative of the whole.

Voice of Reason the link you provided doesn't support that statement at all.

OhHolyJesus · 14/10/2019 08:57

Pineapple you are betr clear and eloquent in your replies but I think you are confusing matters. For me, it really not is not about all men or all men or all mothers or all of any group.

Some men have and will abuse self ID so to get access to women and children. It has happened. It is happening. Anyone who uses self ID because they believe they are the opposite sex should be speaking up and speaking about the dangers, so to disassociate with these dangerous people, and let's face it, women who think they are men, or who say they are men, are not doing this to gain access to women's spaces or children. It is the men, sad but true. Not all men but you cannot dismiss history and facts with platitudes of 'not all men'.

As a group, gay men are not paedophiles and the LGB movement has worked hard for decades to disassociate with that presumption. Some men, gay or otherwise, are paedophiles and within the law we seek to find them and keep them away from children (although increasingly we are failing in doing this.)

Those with genuine 'gender dysphoria' should be shouting loud and working hard to improve the GRC process so to protect themselves as well as others.

Why are people who think they are trans not doing this? Some are, but why not more? Why not all?

Iggly · 14/10/2019 09:10

Your arguments are completely full of logical fallacies. So because you have read about one person claiming to be transgender who is a threat to women, all transgender people are a threat to women? So because I have read about one mother who abused her child does that mean all mothers are a threat to their children?

The logic, in my mind, is in fact the other way around.

Why put women at greater risk? That’s ultimately what is at stake here.

Self ID and allowing the barriers between segregated spaces disintegrate, you raise the risk to women.

And by women I mean women, not those who are male by sex and like to call themselves women. They’re trans women who require different services and amenities. Because, at a very basic level, their bodies do not function biologically as a biological woman.

To take an analogy: The minority of adults are paedophiles but schools still have safeguarding procedures in place to protect children. Shall we remove this safeguarding procedures because “it’s only a small number of bad individuals”?

That’s effectively what people are saying when it comes to trans women in women’s spaces.