Men only job

[SuperMeerkat]

First time post, long time lurker. I spotted a job that was for men only, sexual health clinic support worker. Advert said ‘exempt under gender discrimination laws etc’ What would happen if a woman applied saying she identified as a man? Or if you were non-binary like I think Sam Smith is? I don’t want the job, just wondering really.

FFS.
I have worked with transgender women over the last three years because that's when the charity changed their rules and allowed referrals from transgender people.

I do excellent work supporting women, as do my colleagues. We support women who have experienced one of the most devastating traumas and consistently receive excellent feedback from our clients. We are an excellent charity doing vital and feminist work, the power of this work cannot be underestimated. I have had people say they can't or world rather not work with pregnant women, older women and white women. All of those requests were listened to. Do not patronise the women accessing my service by saying they cannot express their opinion or choice with us.

Transgender women are not men. They are women. They absolutely can and are raped like cis women. Your ignorance is disgusting.

Apparently 'unsubscribing from all emails' doesn't stop me getting alerts for the thread so I'm deleting my account. I'm glad Mumsnet are losing money/sponsors as they clearly don't care about the hatred and prejudice on their forums.

If your definition of 'hatred and prejudice' is simply "I believe trans people have identities and needs that should be met but they don't change sex and biological women still need to be protected as a separate sex class for their needs to be met" then the problem is yours really.

Freedom of belief.

You want it to be a zero sum game where women as a sex class vanish (and pretend this doesn't affect them) and trans people can be validated at all times in all ways regardless of the harm it does to others, because they are intrinsically more important.

I respect you believe that. I don't respect that you are abusing and name calling anyone who doesn't share that belief as a heretic.

I believe in a world where everyone matters, everyone's needs get meet and solutions must be found that work for everyone's needs. Not throwing one group under the bus to benefit another.

If that's 'hatred and prejudice' to you then you're the one with the issues.

Please stick around, Pineapple. There is no hate involved in the argument over whether a male person is, or is not, to be viewed as a woman.

I am unable to view them as women in the same way that I am unable to view religious beliefs as facts, or adults as children. I don't hate religious people or transgender people or older people for a difference in belief.

Why do you see this disagreement as 'hate'? It's so hyperbolic.

Honestly, if you believe it's just to oppress and exclude one group for the benefit of another, what is different between your views and the views of any government that has ever supported slavery or genocide?

You've just picked a different group to privilege and the group you're putting under the bus, according to your personal political opinions of what's good and what isn't. You can't believe in freedom or equality or human rights if you don't believe in them equally for everyone.

That’s a shame pineapple. Noone here hates anyone. I house students for a living. Since self-ID has taken hold we have had to allocate based on gender identity. This means that young biological women of all cultures could be allocated a shared bedroom with a 6ft2 man with a penis who prefers to be called Paris. Or Fae. Or Arielle. The biological female can not now complain or ask to share with a woman, because she will get the response you are giving to other non-compliant women ‘you are a transphobic bigot’. I’m pretty sure your service users share the same fear, knowing your prejudice against biological females, and so wouldn’t dare ask for a male person to not be present during their sessions.
You are not providing a good service for women, pineapple. You are providing a service that prioritises men.

I’m not sure why the rights of one group are seen as effectively trumping the rights of another.

That’s the issue here.

Why not give trans women their own special spaces for changing and dealing with personal bodily functions.

Or make sure that all such spaces suit the needs of everyone.

Instead, the legitimate concerns of one group (biological women) are being overrun by the legitimate concerns of others.

That’s essentially what’s happening here.

@Pineapplemonkey86 - there is no treatment, medical, surgical or combination of both, that can turn a biological man into a biological woman. It can create a reasonable facsimile of the other sex, but the neo-vagina cannot do the things that a vagina can - and it is cruel to transgender people to suggest that it can. Likewise, a neo-penis will not do what a biological one can - and can involve serious mutilation to create it.

So no, I do not believe or accept that a trans woman is a woman. Biologically, chromosomally, genetically, they are male and always will be. They may pass as female, and I will call them by their chosen name/pronouns, but I will not give away the hard won protections and rights of biological women.

Someone very wise, on here, said that trans men and trans women have every right to a seat at the table. But women have fought long and hard for our one seat, so whilst we may budge up for the trans men and women to have a seat, we are NOT giving up our single seat to them - and that is what the most vociferous trans activists want.

Trans activist campaigner Shon Fay has actually tweeted, “Women - enjoy your erasure!” Because that is the end goal for some. I will not collide with that.

@Iggly - trans women do not want separate facilities especially for them, because that does not validate their belief that they are ‘real’ women. They don’t want third spaces, they want women’s spaces. And the loss of women’s safety, rights and protections is a price they are willing to accept - because it will not be them paying it.

I agree @SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius

There are a group of predatory men who are using identify of being a of trans woman as cover to carry on their nefarious activities towards women.

Why don’t the more vocal trans activists advocate spaces which work for them? Instead of taking the ones that work for biological women?

They aren’t going to do that - third spaces means accepting they are not women, it doesn’t validate their identity - so they don’t want it.

It’s so disgraceful really.

Biological women make up just over half of the worlds population. Biological we are not the same as men - periods, childbirth, more likely to be incontinent, hormones have a massive impact on our bodies.

Yet all of this is discounted.

It’s disgusting.

@Pineapplemonkey86 I'm '@ ing' you so to be sure to ask you a genuine question, not to harass you or to send you any 'hate'.

You stated earlier that it is only women providing the service but you provide that service to women and transgender women (again, using your language to show respect).

My question is, as there appear to be no transgender women counsellors at your practice, the only time a female victim would have a need to refuse the service would be in a group setting where a transgendered women would be present or if a transgender woman counsellor would appear as a new member of staff, have I got that right?

As you've been clear that you think and believe that transgender women are women (and to believe otherwise = bigotry) then can you understand, from your experience with female rape victims that there might be a circumstance where a woman doesn't want to talk to a transgender woman counsellor, and if so why could that be? And if a transgender woman applied for a job with your practice would their biological sex be a reason not to hire them (assuming all experience and skills were met)?

Transgender women are not men. They are women.

By what definition are they women? The Equality Act 2010 section 212 says that "'woman' means a female of any age". The Oxford Dictionary uses "adult human female". Both the law and the dictionary agree that being female is necessary to be a woman. A female of any mammalian species is a member of the class within that species that gives birth, releases ova, and lactates. In cases of DSD or other infertility, the question one would ask about a female specimen is "why is this bitch/queen/doe/women not getting pregnant after matings?" The comparable question for a male specimen is "is this dog/tom/buck/man firing blanks?"

No one would ever ask "why is this transwoman not getting pregnant after matings?" We might ask "is this transwoman firing blanks?" So, knowing that transwomen are male and that a woman denotes a human female, in what way are transwomen women?

Rereading, this jumped out at me: They absolutely can and are raped like cis women.

But will never need to abort their rapist's baby, unlike "cis" women.

There are reasons why we legally define rape as needing a penis to commit, and classify it separately in law from other sexual offences: the pregnancy risk to female victims. There is a reason why women like me would sooner jump under a train than talk to a male rape counselor: the fear of penises and their owners. Even when a man stops short of rape and "only" sexually-assaults a woman, she knows that he could have escalated to rape and possibly made her pregnant and that knowledge will affect her.

Most transwomen have penises, so as far as I'm concerned, they are armed like every other male.

@Pineapplemonkey86 please don't use the term 'cis' it is offensive.

The difference between a man and a transwoman, allegorised.

(Image sources: media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/1192cbCOMIC-open-carry-patriots.jpg and www.thetrace.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/open-carry-color-2-1200x0-c-default.jpg)

For the hard-of-thinking, penis = rifle.

Intersex individual here! I do not have a 'disorder'!! DSD is not a better term than intersex!!! www.intersexinitiative.org/articles/dsdfaq.html

Also very sad to see you go @pineapplemonkey86 as it was really heartwarming to see someone give an alternative perspective. Sorry your work with women was attacked!! I'd like to PM you if that's ok x

I know and other intersex people know more than anyone that your genitals do not define your character, your personality or your gender!!

It’s fine for you to include the concept of intersex as part of your personal identity, 99luft

However it is insulting to the vast majority of women and men who have disorders of sexual development to imply their medical conditions make them “less male/female” or somehow “between sexes”.

Intersex women are women.

Also @bd67th, what are you on about?!?! How about women who are raped bit can not have children??? Because of their age, that they are on birth control, that the rapist used a condom, they were anally raped, they are infertyle, etc etc etc?!?!

Most intersex people are born healthy! Believe me @FWRLurker you've got it the wrong way round!! Most people in the intersex community are totally fine with the term but hate the dsd lable!! oiiuk.org/category/library/the-basics/

Also @FWRLurker do you mean intersex women who identify as women or those where the doctor or parents decided thats what they should be as infants??

Male predators do not need to identify as women to have access to women.

Yes the example of Karen White is horrendous and should not have been allowed to happen

Is this a joke? Karen White literally had access to women in a women's prison because Karen White identified as a woman. How on earth else would a male prisoner be able to live in a women's prison?

Your genitals do not define your character, personality or gender identity

They do not define your gender identity.

Gender no longer means Male/female.

Your chromosomes decide your genitals in the womb.

Your character and personality are defined by a number of things including parental traits and your childhood experiences. Your personality is not connected to your genitals.

No one here is reducing anyone to their genitals.

As an intersex person (using your language as a sign of respect) you would know that and if you read the thread you would see that we are not talking about genitals, we are talking about men. Men have genitals and some men use them to rape.

A lot of people in here are saying if you have as penis you are a man and no matter if you identify as a woman you'll never be accepted into female spaces. What happens if you have female chromosomes but male genetalia?? Or male chromosomes and a vagina?? Or if you're chromosomes are XO or XXX or XXY? What if your biology is so complex doctors can't say if you're male or female?? Who would you choose to include/exclude then??