Why do women not believe other women (Boris Johnson story)

[Annasgirl]

I came on to see if there was a thread on this, and there is a similar thread on the topic but it is based on giving out about George Galloway (I'm not in the UK so no real opinion on him except that I don't like him).

However, watching the Channel 4 news last night I was amazed at the number of people (women) who asked why the journalist did not raise this allegation earlier and questioning her integrity.

Now, these kinds of comments square with my impression that the greatest achievement of the patriarchy was to get women to compete always and ever against other women for the crumbs from the man's table. So, women have never been each others allies in the way that men were (war etc) and they instead belittle and criticise the woman in these scenarios instead of the men (see also, the constant criticism of the other woman and never of the married man; the lack of belief of women in rape trials; the lack of belief of women in MeToo; the list of senior female actresses who still defend Weinstein, and Polanski; the madams who procure women for creepy men - and on and on ad infinitum.

Until women put other women first there really will be no better future for our daughters and I find this incredibly sad. I grew up in a matriarchy and I have always encouraged and supported other women and girls throughout my life - I am just always saddened that this is the exception rather than the rule.

I absolutely did not imply that she was troubled, that is how you choose to read my posts

because the timing and him being famous would make him a target for a troubled woman

One where I'm appalled that so few women report assault

They dont report because misogynists dont think it's such a big deal and like to protect mens reputations from 'troubled women'

@BernardBlacksWineIceLolly I can’t really comment because u don’t know her, or him. I know more about his character and moral compass as a result of the media but know nothing of her, of her character; her integrity.

Abuse of power happens all of the time, but it happens to men too, by women in power. It’s wholly unacceptable full stop.

I saw a comment made by Alix Pollizzi about her normalisation of abuse, how she felt the thigh grab was ok, I strongly disagree with her viewpoint, it’s never ok.

As for violence, well that’s never right is it? I’ve been subjected to some of the most horrific treatment and never once did I use violence in response.

As I said upthread I have disbelieved women in the past when they have been found lying (by police investigation). It was alleged a boyfriend sent her photos of me 8 months pregnant. The distress that caused me I cannot even begin to put into words. If another woman is willing to do that to another in order to emotionally blackmail her then yes, I’ll question everything. Particularly the double standards where she complains about being cheated on when she’s guilty of the same but blames the gin and the abuse. I could go on but I’ll stop. Some of what was said was beyond ludicrous. Jealousy really does bring out the worst in people it seems.

I have cut out that toxicity and I am so much happier today.

@Grimbles

Apologies, I should have typed "could" instead of "would".
As I pointed out, english is not my first language. I feel that some of you are extrapolating meaning from my words that I never meant. I did not say that she was troubled. I pointed out that once a person is famous, people who are troubled (what is wrong with that word anyway, everyone is being so weird about it but no one gives an answer!) could, might, it is possible, feel that they need to seek negative attention for this person (probably weong english too but it doesn't matter, you'll call me names about it anyway). False allegations do happen. I was not present at said groping, I have mever met any of these people and this is why I will not blindly follow all that is said. Apparantly this makes me a misogynist, a man, a woman in need of a man, a retro whatever, a fan of Boris (not from UK, have no idea about his politics) and I dislike what she was saying. Can't you see how ridiculous you are to me just because I disagree of finding someone absolutely 100% no questions asked guilty without investigation?

Now stop thinking up all kinds of stuff that I didn't write.

With respect better, you did write it and you have just admitted that you should have worded it differently. We can only go by the words you type- if you are not a native English speaker we cannot be blamed for not knowing exactly what you meant and taking your words at face value

It was a simple misunderstanding, it could have been cleared up quite quickly had you explained sooner.

Wow, this got weird quite quickly.

Er...yeah

Well this is awkward.

What the fuck is happening here ?

Ah. Holes in the thread now make it look sort of normal. Ish.

Is this FWR? Did I accidentally click on the wrong thread?

I’m baffled by some of the posts on here. I feel as if we have somehow travelled back in time!

Be baffled but don't think that the people you disagree with are going to change their mind because it's now frowned upon to not automatically believe everyone with a vagina. Just as women don't believe a man's a woman because he says so.

Well no. A man is not a woman.

A woman saying she has been assaulted or harassed is mostly going to be telling the truth because that happens all the fucking time

So that was a shit analogy for all purposes except demonstrating why you're here

Reasonable doubt is a legal concept. People on a web forum are not required to prove cases beyond it.

Boris is distrusted because he's a well known public figure with a long history of bad behavior. Boris specifically. What those on the other side of the argument are doing is going, well, I knew this one woman once who was "troubled" who I think lied and so all women lie, or women lie often enough that we ought to assume that's what's happening in this case. Which is a rather different thing. Specific person - there's a history you can use to help make judgements. One person from whom you've extrapolated to conclude that half the human race habitually lie about being sexually assaulted - that's just misogyny, mate.

One where I'm appalled that so few women report assault.

If reporting wasn't greeted with exactly the kind of behavior you're displaying in this thread then maybe more women would report.

A woman saying she has been assaulted or harassed is mostly going to be telling the truth Yes, I agree with you there, mostly going to be telling the truth but definitely not in all cases ergo I don't automatically believe all claims women make.

I'm here because the op asked a question, you don't like my answer, tough luck. That's life folks.

I don't give a shit about your answer. I don't like your shit trans analogy which doesn't work except to betray your contempt for the women who post here.

Betray my contempt for the women who post here? What on earth are you talking about? I answered the op's question, gave my reasons why I don't automatically believe every claim women make and I'm displaying contempt? So is this the section of mumsnet where there is only one right answer?

Be specific if you're going to throw around such claims. Where is my contempt for women who post here?

Right there where you drag in the trans thing and say not believing it is the same thing as not believing a woman who says she has been assaulted. As I have said three times now.

You are not arguing in good faith.

I aint arguing full stop. You seem very angry.

The link I was making is that I use my critical faculties in both scenarios, whether it's women alleging sexual assault or men stating they're women. That was the only link. I think it's a disservice to women to insist we blindly believe every claim merely because they're women. It's true the vast majority of allegations will be true and it's shocking. But there are false claims and my friend's son was tried for alleged rape only to be cleared at the last day in court when irrefutable evidence (from a taxi cab recording) was found. It was a shocking episode that saw my friend, his mother, have a nervous breakdown and his father die suddenly, aged early fifties. We sat many hours discussing what if's, what if he was a rapist? How could she have raised someone like that? She didn't blindly accept his assurance it was false, she tried to believe the woman would not put herself through a rape trial for sheer revenge. Except she did.

Not angry. Just pointing out that what you said doesn't work.

Unless you really need the full weight of your critical faculties to assess whether a man saying he is a woman is wrong.

Pointless.

I fully believe in innocent until proven guilty but outside a law court understand why people believe it to be true giving his form.

The truth for many is they just don’t care though. I’m the same. I believe he may have squeezed some ladies leg without permission. A lady of privilege who didn’t make or felt no need to complain at the time. Fuck this power balance bollocks - this is certainly not a case of some massive person of posh power against some council estate intern.

It doesn’t seem they were traumatised so whilst the act might not be fake the reaction is. I do think it might have happened. I also don’t give a fuck about it because the outrage is insincere. Would jump to the defence of someone genuinely upset though

And thats why its so difficult to get a case to court, let alone a conviction - unless you are the ideal victim giving the perfect display of trauma and sincerity, people will take great pleasure in pronouncing you guilty of something or other instead.

If you're not curled up in a corner crying for the rest of your life then obviously nothing happened and how dare you ruin a good man's reputation!

That’s a weird interpretation Prodigal. I do understand the not being treated seriously if you’re not in the corner crying. But we’re talking a shit load of time ago and the object of Boris’ affections or sexual assault victim depending on your own views is from a political background so the timing seems to be suspicious.

I know some people say so what it doesn’t change the fact he did it but I’m less inclined to be outraged about it taking that stance. It seems like some weird casino chip to be held until the best time. I just don’t believe she’s upset about it now or was at the time. Won’t excuse it but won’t buy the crocodile tear shit either