Why do women not believe other women (Boris Johnson story)

[Annasgirl]

I came on to see if there was a thread on this, and there is a similar thread on the topic but it is based on giving out about George Galloway (I'm not in the UK so no real opinion on him except that I don't like him).

However, watching the Channel 4 news last night I was amazed at the number of people (women) who asked why the journalist did not raise this allegation earlier and questioning her integrity.

Now, these kinds of comments square with my impression that the greatest achievement of the patriarchy was to get women to compete always and ever against other women for the crumbs from the man's table. So, women have never been each others allies in the way that men were (war etc) and they instead belittle and criticise the woman in these scenarios instead of the men (see also, the constant criticism of the other woman and never of the married man; the lack of belief of women in rape trials; the lack of belief of women in MeToo; the list of senior female actresses who still defend Weinstein, and Polanski; the madams who procure women for creepy men - and on and on ad infinitum.

Until women put other women first there really will be no better future for our daughters and I find this incredibly sad. I grew up in a matriarchy and I have always encouraged and supported other women and girls throughout my life - I am just always saddened that this is the exception rather than the rule.

Firstly, unless you're her friend and she's in the habit of confiding in you then I'm not sure how you'd know if she was upset at the time. Secondly, who cares? Is it OK to go around groping people who work for you just because some of them may be able to brush it off?

I can do easily believe two things at once. I think Boris is probably a groping sex pest and she’s also an attention seeker playing politics

Are you in the habit of handwaving away complaints from women who for whatever reason you don't like?

I really am curious about why this particular case seems to have sent so many people's internalized misogyny into overdrive.

It’s sent people into overdrive because of how it’s turned into a political issue. I don’t think most of the parties, politicians, journalists and columnists give two fucks about the actual facts or feelings of the woman. Politics is why some people are rushing to his defence and others are portraying him as akin to Hitler.

That was kind of my point. I’m not under illusions that Boris isn't sleazy. There’s a lot of evidence to suggest this is true. But I also can’t be arsed to get worked up about some woman coming out the woodworks now with some big reveal now at such an opportune time.

I have sympathy for sex attack survivor and will rail against those who commit them but this stuff now seems to me at least as manufactured outrage. And I hate people shit stirring for party politics motives

I don’t think you care about poor Charlotte either. It’s just turned into false outrage. I haven’t pretended to know her and she certainly hasn’t confided in me but don’t believe she’s suddenly in turmoil after saying zilch for a decade.

I wait for the inevitable examples of victims of serious abuse finally bravely coming out having been too scared to do so earlier. The accusation - Boris squeezed my leg once

I do find it suspect why you wouldn't say anything till the man is famous.
It is not a question of fame so much as enormous power.
The Kavanaugh case comes to mind. Blasey Ford spoke up because of Kavanaugh's increased power to harm.
Same thing in this case.

It was twenty years ago. But being scrutinized through the very recent Me Too lens.

Did it happen? You bet it did. Is he a letch? Yup.

The timing of her revelation leaves me cynical however. Also I will NOT equate a squeezed thigh to sexual abuse. Harassment maybe. Twenty years ago I would have called that a clumsy pass when it happened to me.

PP's who don't agree are outraged and telling us to piss off FWR.

Call out culture in action.

It's ok to disagree.

How the fuck was I supposed to prove that a dirty old man grabbed my breast, and then on another occasion patted near my crotch? Both times when no one else was in the office. Funnily enough the women didn't believe me, the men did. I found that really odd at the time but now I understand it. Because of reading this thread. So many women are falling over themselves to disbelieve or discredit this woman.

And I know the idea of internalised misogyny is sneered at. But what else can it be?

Unbelievable the argument that she should have known what The Spectator was like. How the hell do you change things if you just avoid places where men behave like sexist wankers. We shouldn't be apologists for it. Full stop.

And that she's only doing it now to further her career or exact revenge. So what? I think we should support younger women who might experience this kind of bullshit behaviour by believing women who are in a stronger position and feel more able to report it now.

Why shouldn't we know what a creep our PM is? It speaks to his lack of respect for others, his sense of entitlement, his casual disregard for people in a subordinate position to him. It's not exactly out of step with his behaviour with other women in his life really, is it?

I'm more disappointed with some of the attitudes on here than I am by the perve himself. I hoped we were beginning to shed some of these attitudes and start to be supportive of each other the way men are. Especially disappointing are the ones that start with, 'as a feminist' and then go on to discredit or criticise this woman.

There was a woman Leader of Bexley Council who said she didn't believe it because he sent her a card when she'd been bereaved so he's such a lovely caring guy he couldn't do anything harmful. But then closed the interviewer down when he asked about his behaviour towards his ex-wife when she had cancer and he was dallying with other women 'oh I don't know about that'. Falling over herself to discredit another woman and believe the proven liar Johnson.

And for the record, I'd be equally disgusted if Jeremy Corbyn or Vince Cable was accused of it. So it's not about party politics.

If it was Corbyn I'd be calling for his head on a platter because there would be an added layer of hypocrisy.

women are falling over themselves to disbelieve or discredit this woman.

People keep saying this, but almost all, if not all posters on this thread have said they do believe her that it happened...

People keep saying this, but almost all, if not all posters on this thread have said they do believe her that it happened...

but also that she's bad, or wrong, or 'troubled' for bringing it up now

what should she have mentioned it to gain your approval?

at the time and jeopardise her career?
kept silent forever like a proper lady?

I believe her but

why does there need to be a 'but'?

Exactly Bernard. The PP ignored the discredit bit.

The Kavanaugh case comes to mind. Blasey Ford spoke up because of Kavanaugh's increased power to harm.
Same thing in this case.

Now that I don't believe for a New York Minute. Blasey Ford's 'testimony' was entirely politically motivated . She didn't file a criminal complaint, instead choosing to state her allegations at the senate hearings for maximum publicity. Truth is, her claims would go nowhere in a criminal court anyway as there was such a paucity of evidence which she knew. So it's very, very easy to smear someone's reputation without even having to go to court. That's a slippery slope to go down because what's sauce for the goose and all that... I honestly think we do more harm to the fight for equality by insisting all women must be believed.

Itwaseverthus she didn't file a criminal complaint because there would be zero chance of it being upheld after all these years. Only 1% of rapes or attempted rapes end in a conviction. That is no proof whatsoever of the fact that it didn't happen. I just don't believe that someone of her standing would have voluntarily put herself through all of that if it hadn't happened.

And she came across as hugely more credible than him. He just did the poor me dance, which those with a massive sense of entitlement always do when caught out.

But I'm not at all surprised you don't believe her. Any other abuse/rape victims you want to disbelieve? Or is it just those attacked by conservative public figures.

You're textbook case of what the OP is talking about. So disappointing. It's like feminism never happened.

In your opinion she came across as hugely credible. I felt she was lying, particularly when she claimed to have no idea how to contact her senator. Most odd, given she was a very accomplished academic. Her oldest friend denied all knowledge of the night in question despite Ford's claim she was with her. It stinks to high heaven.

I believe, as I said, the vast majority of victims of abuse/rape. Just not all. Feminists here seem to want to push 100% belief with no questions asked. I refuse to park my faculties at the door thanks all the same.

He just did the poor me dance, which those with a massive sense of entitlement always do when caught out If I was wrongly accused of a sexual crime, hauled over the coals in front of the world's media, I'd be a lot more emotionally wrought that he was. I thought he held it together pretty well. As for Ms Ford, I scoffed when she claimed to have put a separate door in her building to feel safe from the world's attackers when, infact, it was put in as part of a house refit to let out a bedroom with it's own entrance. She was an accomplished liar, almost had even me fooled, for a nanosecond.

I'm a feminist to my bones, but I won't leave my common sense at the door for any political end.

so interesting to see the fandango people will do to avoid considering why they have to append that 'but' to

I believe her but

Some posters have stated that they are cynical about the actions of the woman in this incident, in the sense that she is not being honest about her reasons for reporting the incident long after it occurred.

Cynical also means "not caring that something might not be morally right, might hurt someone etc, when you are trying to get something for yourself".

I think cynical is a very good word to describe the behaviour of a man who gropes women.

It's the old story innit?

men groping women is bad

but women inconveniencing men by making a fuss about it is worse

Do I find it credible that Boris Johnson squeezed her leg 20 years ago? Yes. Is it nuisence behaviour? Yes, but at that point of time, you'd brush it off. As recent allegations against high profile men go, it is quite tame and weak in isolation.

Is the timing suspect? Yes. He's been high profile for a long time. Even since #Metoo came out, there's been more natural points to disclose it. The fracas with his girlfriend would have been a point more likely to provoke sympathy if the genuine aim is about Johnson not politics.

Yes I know why women don't come forwards to publicly confront men with unwanted sexual behaviour. My own assault was more unpleasant and intimate than a squeeze on the leg and could have been considerably more serious and unpleasant if I hadn't woken sooner. I never reported it. There was no physical evidence to present. There was a witness, but he was passive and didn't intervene. I feared being analysed about my behaviours and clothing in the build up to the assualt even though I was asleep when it commenced and did nothing to invite such behaviour from him. The only potential for my story to have gravity would be if he rose to prominence and others came forwards. Maybe he learned his lesson when I kicked him in the face, I don't know but he did disappear from that social circle that day.

Is the timing suspect? Yes

why? genuinely - help me out here?

why can't she talk about the time her creepy boss groped her whenever she damn well chooses?

why is her picking her time the thing you focus on, rather than Johnson touching up members of staff? almost like women talking about men's bad behaviour is the worse crime

Lot's of posts saying "suspect". What does this word mean in this context please?

I realise there are many attributions of motive, so does having a motive make something "suspect"
Definition
have an idea or impression of the existence, presence, or truth of (something) without certain proof.

*so interesting to see the fandango people will do to avoid considering why they have to append that 'but' to

I believe her but*

I don't believe her.

crikey itwasever, you think serial adulterer, sacked for lying, Boris Johnson didn't feel up a member of staff?

you think it's more likely that Edwardes has chosen to make the whole thing up?

blimey

Yes.