Why do women not believe other women (Boris Johnson story)

[Annasgirl]

I came on to see if there was a thread on this, and there is a similar thread on the topic but it is based on giving out about George Galloway (I'm not in the UK so no real opinion on him except that I don't like him).

However, watching the Channel 4 news last night I was amazed at the number of people (women) who asked why the journalist did not raise this allegation earlier and questioning her integrity.

Now, these kinds of comments square with my impression that the greatest achievement of the patriarchy was to get women to compete always and ever against other women for the crumbs from the man's table. So, women have never been each others allies in the way that men were (war etc) and they instead belittle and criticise the woman in these scenarios instead of the men (see also, the constant criticism of the other woman and never of the married man; the lack of belief of women in rape trials; the lack of belief of women in MeToo; the list of senior female actresses who still defend Weinstein, and Polanski; the madams who procure women for creepy men - and on and on ad infinitum.

Until women put other women first there really will be no better future for our daughters and I find this incredibly sad. I grew up in a matriarchy and I have always encouraged and supported other women and girls throughout my life - I am just always saddened that this is the exception rather than the rule.

Oh I agree with you all that there was a political motive but that does not mean that what she says was not true and it would not make me disbelieve her.

Also, I agree - why is it getting more coverage than his fight with his girlfriend or the other awful things he has done to women? But the question really was about the number of older women not eh Vox pops who questioned the accuser not the accused.

on the Vox pops!!!! (on Channel 4 news)

@TheProdigalKittensReturn
Because the question was posed in relation to women not believing other women in cases of sex abuse, rape, DV - they were the examples I gave in my opening post. The accused in these cases is a man. In these cases, I would be more likely to believe a woman as I believe women rarely (see rape stats and the trauma of rape trials) lie about these things.

Oh I agree with you all that there was a political motive but that does not mean that what she says was not true and it would not make me disbelieve her.

Exactly.

Because they are invested in the debate so they do not want it to be true.

Not sure why you're @ing me, OP. Maybe take a look at the comment I was quoting.

I believe her. And I don't think it matters that it was twenty years ago.
It tells us exactly the type of entitled pig our prime minister is.

You either put women first or you don't - there is no "I put women first unless the man who's done something to them is useful to me, in which case under the bus that woman goes".

But being a feminist doesn't mean we can't think critically and rationally about the motivations of other women, or ask why they do things. It doesn't mean we believe all women blindly all the time over all men.

I can believe this happened to Charlotte Edwardes but I'm deeply cynical about the timing of this story. (1) Her partner is good friends with Remainder Amber Rudd's brother, so perhaps she wants to delay Brexit/pile heat on Johnson - political motivation. (2) She has a new newspaper column and wants to start things off with a bang - using her experience to further her career.

Neither motivation reflects well on her, tbh, and I'm concerned that otehr women who comes forward to tell their own stories will be less believed because of Edwardes' timing.

I agree with bookworm. I believe her but so what. The whole thing smacks of cynicism and it brings down the integrity of the metoo movement.

If people don't believe other women because of this one that's because they don't believe women in general. Which is how it always goes, and something anyone calling themselves a feminist really ought to be aware of already.

I realize Brexit has made people lose their minds a bit but if we could keep it out of feminist discussions that would be great.

Has anyone here ever made a public declaration of sexual assault at the hands of a public figure? Not just a public figure, but the man leading our country (and leading us straight off a cliff)?

No? Then you have no right to judge her decision making or timings.

I was sexually abused as a child, and sexually assaulted on multiple occasions as an adult. I’ve never been to the police, but if any of those men were suddenly in a position of extreme power you can bet your ass I’d feel I had to say something.

Of course I believe her. I’m sure it’s one of the milder forms of abuse he’s perpetuated against women, frankly. Nobody has the right to judge if or when another person discloses these things.

This is clearly pure conjecture, but had I watched my partner (Peston) conduct such a matey, jocular interview with BJ last Wednesday, I can see that this might prompt me to tell him what had happened when BJ had been my boss. And I can see how telling him that might lead to me thinking, "fuck it", and go public too.

It matters not one bit that it was twenty years ago. And the 'denial' language has been very careful; the unfortunate thing is that because it was twenty years ago, BJ can claim to have no memory.

It seems extraordinarily unlikely that someone in her position would fabricate this.

I don’t understand this idea that “timing” brings down the integrity of Me Too.

Like Lang says the abuser deserves to feel maximal pain for what he did. Disclosing earlier would have been less painful for him - in fact she’d just be laughed off by whoever she told.

So yeah F BJ.

Of course if UK is anything like the US Johnson’s voters won’t care one whit. We literally have a president who has been accused of rape, bragged in Tape about sexual assault, used prostitutes while married and yet the socially conservative Christian base don’t care because he tells them it’s ok to hate anyone not like them.

Is anyone saying they don't believe that the thigh squeeze happened? I'm sure most people can well imagine that it, and worse, have absolutely happened.

I don't think I do believe ALL women AUTOMATICALLY. I do believe the vast majority of women though.

However, Boris Johnson has been sacked for two positions for lying, he has admitted to numerous affairs, there is a news black out on how many children he has, he insisted his young mistress, Petronella Wyatt had an abortion, he left his wife with cancer, for a mistress much much younger than him, he is being investigated for paying lap-dancers with public funds, and people genuinely do not believe that he is capable of touching this woman's thighs?

It's baffling.

So the anti-Edwardes view seems to be, not that she's lying, but that she's telling the truth at a time she has found to be politically expedient. To be honest, I don't know why that's such a bad thing. It doesn't make it any more right for Johnson to have squeezed her thigh under the table, does it? He must have known that kind of behaviour would catch up with him eventually.

As far as I can tell there are two contradictory stories going out about the timing. One is that she has chosen this moment carefully to cause maximum damage to Johnson. The other is that she has chosen it to deflect attention from the revelations about his relationship with Jennifer Arcuri. It seems unlikely that both are true.

because woman know woman can lie, too.

To be honest, I don't know why that's such a bad thing.

Neither do I. I think it's an excellent thing. You don't want your groping to public at an inexpedient time for your political career?

Don't fucking grope.

You don't want your groping to public at an inexpedient time for your political career?

Seems obvious to me

What the fuck is this "I don't question that it happened, but why mention it now?" shit?

If a man behaves badly, do we have a set of ground rules as to when we can mention it? Is there a statute of limitations on these things? Tough luck, love, you missed the boat. Yes, he probably did squeeze your thigh, but if you didn't mention it then, I don't care.

I mean, if you said you didn't believe her, that's one thing. But this mealy mouthed 'yes, I believe her, but it doesn't matter' crap is really fucking unpleasant.

I believe her

And she can bring it up at any point that suits her...its her story to tell

Barely anything can (it seems) be done about men groping women through official, legal channels so yeah, I'd keep quiet if my editor groped me.

I'd then use it to the best effect when times changed or it became urgent, no question.

It might not be textbook "right" but that's how it is: how about we continue chipping away at the culture that a) allows men to think groping or worse is their right and b) reinforces social structures whereby fuck all is done to stop it anyway.

Do you believe the woman or not?That's all it is. Do you believe her or don't you?

Yes, of course I believe her....but I'm not in agreement with an event from 20 years ago being dragged up for political purposes. It wasn't rape or violent assault. He squeezed her thigh.

It was wrong; he shouldn't have, and women should not have to tolerate this.......but if it was so damaging and traumatic for her she should have brought it up at the time. the fall-out from this will be far worse for her.

The 'Me Too thing' can get very silly, and in not being judicious enough it blunts and diminishes its purpose in my view.

I obviously believe that woman, but I could never put blind faith in unknown people, be they women or men, and am a foolishly trusting person by nature.

if it was so damaging and traumatic for her she should have brought it up at the time

WTAF?

Do you understand what trauma is?

Are you saying that the abuse that happened to me as a child wasn’t damaging or traumatic because I kept it to myself for years?

Or the partner who repeatedly raped and sexually assaulted me, not traumatic because I didn’t tell anyone until a year or so ago?

This is one of the most ignorant sentences I’ve ever seen.