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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why do women not believe other women (Boris Johnson story)

351 replies

Annasgirl · 01/10/2019 10:51

I came on to see if there was a thread on this, and there is a similar thread on the topic but it is based on giving out about George Galloway (I'm not in the UK so no real opinion on him except that I don't like him).

However, watching the Channel 4 news last night I was amazed at the number of people (women) who asked why the journalist did not raise this allegation earlier and questioning her integrity.

Now, these kinds of comments square with my impression that the greatest achievement of the patriarchy was to get women to compete always and ever against other women for the crumbs from the man's table. So, women have never been each others allies in the way that men were (war etc) and they instead belittle and criticise the woman in these scenarios instead of the men (see also, the constant criticism of the other woman and never of the married man; the lack of belief of women in rape trials; the lack of belief of women in MeToo; the list of senior female actresses who still defend Weinstein, and Polanski; the madams who procure women for creepy men - and on and on ad infinitum.

Until women put other women first there really will be no better future for our daughters and I find this incredibly sad. I grew up in a matriarchy and I have always encouraged and supported other women and girls throughout my life - I am just always saddened that this is the exception rather than the rule.

OP posts:
deydododatdodontdeydo · 03/10/2019 11:47

Really?

"given his other known public behaviour I don't find it hard to believe he'd behave like this"

could be:
"given her other known public behaviour I don't find it hard to believe she did consent".

BeMoreMagdalen · 03/10/2019 12:01

Yes, poor Johnson. He really should have some DARVO employed on his behalf.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 03/10/2019 12:27

because it smacks of those "she slept with lots of men before" type rapist defences

Nah, that’s properly misogynistic thinking

Consenting to sex with person A (and B through to bloody Y come to that) does not make you more likely to consent to sex with person Z and does not make you obliged to have sex with person Z (even though many men, and apparently some women, think that way)

Having a history of not giving a shit about boundaries, lying and cheating does make you more likely to abuse a position of trust, like say, touching up a member of your staff and relying on your status to keep you safe from consequences

LangCleg · 03/10/2019 12:46

Gawd. This thread is an embarrassment.

GO CHARLOTTE EDWARDES! SHAME THE POSH PERV! GOOD STUFF!

Now, let's get back to Bob Peston's Trousersnake of Brexit Doom.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 03/10/2019 13:18

Bob Peston's Trousersnake of Brexit Doom.

Finally something I can blame this mess on

I hold Peston’s todger fully responsible for this whole fucking fiasco

AnnaNimmity · 03/10/2019 13:25

I also can't believe some of the stuff on this thread.

I believe her. I believer her for 3 reasons: one it happens. To all us - particularly in our 20s/30s (but also to me this year!) - a man in power abuses that power, oversteps our boundaries and innapropriately touches, speaks to or worse a less powerful woman. In my 30s my boss did it to me. I didn't say anything. I still haven't said anything.

Secondly why would she lie? Most women don't lie anyway, but in cases like this this it's hard (so hard) to come out and say something like this - the woman is endlessly scrutinised, we get sacked, our reputation is in tatters. And it's easier to stay quiet. And there's usually no advantage at all for the woman of saying anything.

And thirdly - Boris?! A known cheat, liar, and adulterer.

I believe her. I would always believe a woman if she told me she had been attacked or assaulted by a man. While liars exist, they are rare.

I have been accused of lying. Which is ridiculous- because i know how hard it is to say something. I know how damaging it is to relive your experiences, to tell other people. I know how your story is questioned. I know how your actions ("why didn't you stop him" "why didn't you leave" are questioned.) For me, telling was so hard. I had to relive the worse abuse. Over and over. I had to go to the police - which is one of the most difficult things I've done. I sobbed through the interviews. I had social services involved. I had my own actions questioned. I had to deal with my own shame. It would have been easier to stay quiet. I didn't gain anything from telling. Nothing at all. but I needed to acknowledge the abuse. I needed him not to get away with it. I needed it for closure. I did it because it was the right thing to do.

Other women have accused me of lying. They have decided that my history, my truth is wrong. Even though they weren't there. They choose not to believe me, which is their problem not mine. It upsets me when my horrible abuse is denied. Or i'm told I deserved it. Or my actions contributed. Or even that i'm bitter and jealous. It upsets me when my history is rewritten to suit others. By all means do that to your own history but leave mine alone. I haven't ever knowingly lied (about much actually) but certainly about the abuse and awful things I suffered, I was told or that I witnessed first hand. Truth and honesty is important. Integrity and authenticity. And also, why lie? I had nothing to gain from lying. And actually it was so hard to come out and say something. Because I had to relive it over and over again.

All I actually did was not tell everything that happened to me and others during that time. Because it was too horrible. Too sordid. And too tough to recount. Some of it, I can't even bring myself to tell my counsellor. And wrapped up in that is the shame I feel for my part in allowing it. And that shame will be continued while women continue to question other women. And that's partly why I didn't say anything about an assault that happened to me this year. Because it's not worth it.

like Boris, mine was also a suave, persuasive, serial cheat and liar (he couldn't even tell the truth about his age) who had philandered and Fucked his way through lives. But because of the patriarchal society that we live in, and which some women contribute to the continuation of, some people choose to believe him . Even people who weren't there. Luckily for me, the police, my family, my friends believe me. and for me that's enough.

AnnaNimmity · 03/10/2019 13:28

Sorry that was long!

In short

Yes I believe her

Yes it doesn't matter that it was 20 years ago.

No women aren't bitter rape accusers

yes he should have to answer for this

yes we live in a patiarchal society that women contribute to.

betternamepending · 03/10/2019 13:53

*troubled woman

Can you actually hear yourself? You think Charlotte Edwardes is a troubled woman?

What other women are troubled? Any you disagree with or who behave in ways you disapprove of?

Retro*

@BernardBlacksWineIceLolly

Whats wrong with what I said? English is not my first language, I don't understand why you write like this. I said I had reasonable doubt. And yes as I stated in one of my posts I have met a troubled woman (would you prefer crazy? I liked her so don't want to call her that) she was my ex colleague who made a false claim and I'm a bloody witness to the fact.

betternamepending · 03/10/2019 13:57

*Retrosexism is so in right now. Do you have a beard, better? If not better get yourself a boyfriend with one.

@TheProdigalKittensReturn*

I am a woman, do you disbelieve me just because I'm not 100% sure that every woman who ever lived who has claimed assault was actually assaulted? So you believe someone just because she is a woman or just because you hate the man? I'd rather not participate in a witch hunt but would rather a judge made the decision.

I do have a few beard hairs thanks to pcos, doesn't make me less a woman.

betternamepending · 03/10/2019 14:00

Do you have a beard, better? If not better get yourself a boyfriend with one.

My husband doesn't approve of me getting a boyfriend.

Why the personal insults? Just because I have a different opinion? Aren't you the little dictator.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 03/10/2019 14:43

Come on better, let’s be honest with ourselves shall we?

You said

the timing and him being famous would make him a target for a troubled woman

The implication being that Charlotte Edwardes is troubled

Not your ex colleague

Your first reaction to a woman saying something you don’t like is to imply that she’s ‘troubled’

Annasgirl · 03/10/2019 15:10

Well it seems that the women who believe Boris are on here as well as on the C4 Vox pop - but can you all enlighten me and tell me why you believe him over her? And with something more based in fact than one anecdote about a colleague who was troubled and made a false rape allegation - as all of these troubled women seemingly do.

Have you ever experienced a rape trial? DO you really think a troubled woman would do that to herself for revenge? And I have yet to see a famous man accused of rape or assault whose life was ruined - I mean one of them even made it to the Supreme Court. But yes, of course, men's lives are ruined by these troubled women.

OP posts:
betternamepending · 03/10/2019 15:30

I don't believe Boris per se, I have reasonable doubt. I don't know what the truth is. Is that so hard to understand?

betternamepending · 03/10/2019 15:33

DO you really think a troubled woman would do that to herself for revenge?

Yes I'm experiencing a former friend doing that right now as revenge, and the man in question is not popular so everyone believes her. It is all a lie though. So it is possible. Which is exactly why I wouldn't want to say thatin the case of Boris I know for sure ehat happened, because I don't know. He might be lying, or she might be lying. I'm glad that I don't have to make that decision.

betternamepending · 03/10/2019 15:35

Can you tell me why you are so abdolutely sure that she is telling the truth and he is lying? How can you be so sure? Just because you don't like him? Is that enough reason?

LangCleg · 03/10/2019 15:38

I have reasonable doubt.

It's not a court case. Nobody is suggesting Boris be prosecuted for a twenty year old grope - because, you know, what would be the point? No man would get prosecuted for a twenty year old grope, and it's unlikely more than about 1% of men get prosecuted for gropes they did yesterday.

So, in the absence of a criminal justice system completely unable to deal with men's unwanted (and illegal) sexual touching of women - WHY NOT MAKE THEM LOOK LIKE THE SHITGIBBONS THEY ARE AT THE MOST APPOSITE TIME?

Why not?

Especially when you've got Robert Peston's Remainer Wang of Power egging you on. Because, y'know, this thread is all about centring the peen.

betternamepending · 03/10/2019 15:40

*@BernardBlacksWineIceLolly
*
Your first reaction to a woman saying something you don’t like is to imply that she’s ‘troubled’

I SAID THAT I HAVE REASONABLE DOUBT. That has nothing to do with liking her or not, I don't know either of them so neither like or dislike them.

What is wrong with saying that there are troubled women out there who have made false allegations in the past? Is it a wrong way of using english? I didn't say that she was troubled, I said that I don't know, the timing gives me sone doubt.

betternamepending · 03/10/2019 15:44

It's not a court case. Nobody is suggesting Boris be prosecuted for a twenty year old grope - because, you know, what would be the point?

Actually I do suggest that. It seems ill advised to just seek the media saying someone did something criminal and then not following through with legal action. In turn he might then sue her for slander (or whatever the correct term is) so it would be better to follow through now in my opinion.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 03/10/2019 15:45

I SAID THAT I HAVE REASONABLE DOUBT

Well that’s not actually what you said. You said

the timing and him being famous would make him a target for a troubled woman

What is wrong with saying that there are troubled women out there who have made false allegations in the past?

But that’s not what you said. You implied that Edwardes is troubled

Maybe think twice before trying to discredit a woman just because she’s saying something you don’t like?

LangCleg · 03/10/2019 15:47

Actually I do suggest that.

HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Who's going to convince the CPS to take it to court?

Deary fucking me. What world do you live in?

LangCleg · 03/10/2019 15:51

Actually, shall we phone Robert Peston?

Could his trousersnake hypnotise the CPS to do his bidding as well?

I wouldn't put it entirely out of the realms of possibility.

Bob! Enlighten us!

Thenotes · 03/10/2019 15:51

I've no idea if this woman is teling the truth, how could I know? I've certainly been lied to by women in the past so I know it's possible.

I think we do know Boris' attitude to women is appalling but somehow that doesn't make him less appealing to women (as voters or otherwise). That's the bit I don't understand.

betternamepending · 03/10/2019 16:01

*@BernardBlacksWineIceLolly
*
*
But that’s not what you said. You implied that Edwardes is troubled

Maybe think twice before trying to discredit a woman just because she’s saying something you don’t like?*

I absolutely did not imply that she was troubled, that is how you choose to read my posts. I posted that a former ex colleague and friend of mine has made a false allegation, I am a witness and its going to court. This is something that I'm thinking about daily because its an awful situation to be in. Can you understand that? Because of that I'm careful to believe someone just because they are a woman, as some people on here apparantly do. I do not know if he did it, I do not know if she is lying. I do not know if she is troubled or crazy or whatever word you won't fall over.

Maybe think twice before trying to discredit a woman just because she’s saying something you don’t like?

She hasn't said anything that I don't like, why are you saying this? I am also not discrediting her. I am simply saying that I dislike a trial by media and that I have doubts (doubts, not disbelieve) because of the timing? You are the one twisting my words, why do you do that? I am quite literal.

betternamepending · 03/10/2019 16:03

Deary fucking me. What world do you live in?

One where I'm appalled that so few women report assault.

betternamepending · 03/10/2019 16:07

I think we do know Boris' attitude to women is appalling but somehow that doesn't make him less appealing to women (as voters or otherwise). That's the bit I don't understand.

Grin thats exactly how I feel every time I see Melania on tv. Imagine having to sleep with trump -shudders-