Why do women not believe other women (Boris Johnson story)

[Annasgirl]

I came on to see if there was a thread on this, and there is a similar thread on the topic but it is based on giving out about George Galloway (I'm not in the UK so no real opinion on him except that I don't like him).

However, watching the Channel 4 news last night I was amazed at the number of people (women) who asked why the journalist did not raise this allegation earlier and questioning her integrity.

Now, these kinds of comments square with my impression that the greatest achievement of the patriarchy was to get women to compete always and ever against other women for the crumbs from the man's table. So, women have never been each others allies in the way that men were (war etc) and they instead belittle and criticise the woman in these scenarios instead of the men (see also, the constant criticism of the other woman and never of the married man; the lack of belief of women in rape trials; the lack of belief of women in MeToo; the list of senior female actresses who still defend Weinstein, and Polanski; the madams who procure women for creepy men - and on and on ad infinitum.

Until women put other women first there really will be no better future for our daughters and I find this incredibly sad. I grew up in a matriarchy and I have always encouraged and supported other women and girls throughout my life - I am just always saddened that this is the exception rather than the rule.

If its 'no big deal' then why is it a problem for her to talk about it?

Exactly. Very well put.

Sorry that happened to you Simon.

She is Robert Peston's girlfriend.

The revelation just happened to be revealed in her first ever column for the Sunday Times (did she hold it out as bait?) when the info would be of the greatest interest.

I do believe her.

She is Robert Peston's girlfriend

Yes and......?

The revelation just happened to be revealed in her first ever column for the Sunday Times (did she hold it out as bait?) when the info would be of the greatest interest

So what

Does that mean she isn’t allowed to talk about being groped by her boss?

She is a man's girlfriend.

Hilarious. Framing her experience in relation to an unconnnected man. So many people are doing this (not just here).

Her boyfriend is a Remainer, apparently (someone said this on the last thread) and this naturally means that she must be his agent? Acting on his orders? Swayed by his mighty penis?

Woman as extension of man she's shagging - super feminist.

Again, I realize that much of the country has gone completely batshit over the endless Brexit debate, but when you find that influencing how you respond to a woman's claims of being harassed by the prime minister (a notorious letch already) then perhaps it's time to step back a bit. Do some yoga, maybe meditate for a while on the theme of feminist principles still applying even when there are other issues that you also care about.

I can believe it happened, but I don't see the logic in giving somebody more credibility solely because their share your biological sex

I believe women because I know how many are gaslighted, attacked and disbelieved for speaking out while the man is defended to the hilt, or even seen as a bit of a player by many.

I understand a small proportion of women will lie, but I would rather support the 99.9% of women who are telling the truth and risk getting it wrong sometimes than not believing a victim of male sexual abuse.

It seems like behind any male predator there is a woman fighting their corner. Look at Ched Evans for example who had his girlfriend and sister fighting for him, look at Alan Johnston convicted of sexual activity with a minor whose sister headed a campaign to support him.

I believe women because nearly all of us have been subject to a mans inability to keep his hands to himself. Even more so when said man is a known creep.

Is it they don’t believe her or that it just doesn’t add anything to people’s assessment of Boris?

Swayed by his mighty penis?

I mean, what else could it be?

Not working in an industry that would eject you if you upset a powerful man. Obviously.

Not being unable to rely on anyone in the criminal justice system. Obviously.

(The idea of Robert Peston having a mighty penis is amusing, however. Hey! Bob! Lots of anti-feminist women are impressed by your trousersnake. Have a preen!)

So much dialogue about abuse and reporting, It would seem that this lady chose this moment to disclose to do maximum damage to Boris at tha conference. She chose the timing.Revenge is never pretty and never works. Whatever the truth of the tale this is not a very good way to go on

It would seem that this lady chose this moment to disclose to do maximum damage to Boris at tha conference

So what? Can you clarify the rules on when it is and isn’t ok to talk about the time your creepy boss felt you up?

Whatever the truth of the tale this is not a very good way to go on

Why not? Should she have just put up with it like a proper lady would?

Here's Shappi Khorsandi talking about when she was sitting next to Boris Johnson on Question Time and he put his hand under the table, grabbed her hand and squeezed it. Her hand just happened to be on her thigh at the time:

www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-charlotte-edwardes-shappi-khorsandi-groping-sexual-harassment-a9128346.html

Isn't it obvious that he's just a man who gropes women? A bit like Donald Trump? I'm not one of those women who automatically believes all women but I can't imagine any reason why Charlotte Edwardes would make up something like this. And we know, for goodness' sake, that he is a man who has had lots of affairs while married - how do people imagine those affairs start? I imagine there are going to be a few more women coming forward to talk about being groped by Johnson.

You seem confused beetle
I wil spell it out...

Man gropes woman without permission - bad
Woman tells the whole fucking world - good

Revenge is never pretty and never works.

Man gropes woman

Woman tells people man groped her

“Revenge” is when you do something BAD to someone in response to that person having done something BAD do you.

If she had grabbed his crotch in public, that would be revenge.

Talking about what happened is just that. Unless you think that women talking is BAD

NOt read all the thread so may be making points others have made.

re women not believing other women. This has been well known as one of the reasons in jury trials that they dont get convictions. And it is quite often the women jurists who are most likely to believe the man rather than the woman.

Also it is really wrong to think that a woman journalist has any power over what she is allowed to say, or is able to get printed.

For many years Boris has been protected by the main stream media. They think of him as one of this own. I suspect many people, particularly editors have a whole list of stories about Boris. So the fact that is now in print will be much more to do with the editorial policy of the paper.

This cover up of men with so called charisma has gone on for years. Jimmy Saville being the most obvious one. And I remember some years ago a well known Barrister who was often in the press as a liberal advocate for human rights etc. died. He seemed almost too good to be true. And so it proved. Within days of his death papers were full of stories of women who had suffered some form of abuse.

Sometimes it is because papers dont want to be sued, but I think more often than not, it is because they are all part of the same old boys club - and probably dont think women being groped is an issue. Accept when it suits their agenda.

You will probably find that in this instance the journalist got the job because she did have this story to tell.

But totally unlikely that a lone female journalist would have any power in deciding when and how it got published.

For someone so offended by being called a misogynist, you’re certainly enjoying playing MRA Lingo Bingo...

Not offended in the slightest, just bored of this self indulgence, and observant of the patterns. It just the same with TRA activists - you must be transphobic if you don't agree that men can be women, or if you view women's rights and experiences in a different way.

I don't participate in Mumsnet generally; ( mainly on TRA related stuff on FWR) because I imagine that a lot of discussion just descends to personal insult - because lost of people, and that includes women, cannot handle disagreement or dissonance without getting overtly personal.

It was you who turned a discussion of differing views about this case into a self indulgent rant about your own personal trauma; and how I couldn't possibly understand what trauma was.

Bored again, now.......and that's it really.

I don't decide to believe someone merely because they're female. I need context, evidence and a lot more detail to form an opinion. The timing of the allegation is clearly political.

I was groped and pawed by a boss years ago, in a locked office with just the two of us. It was frightening as I didn't know where the keys were and had to buy time before making my exit. I never went back, told him he was a disgrace and to leave my very substantial final pay cheque in that night's post. The avenues for dealing with it higher up seemed limited then. I had to just go work elsewhere and leave him sweating that I'd inform his wife.

On the other hand, dh was telling me recently about a business owner he knows who set up with another woman and, despite being seemingly successful and busy, was leaking money. A new staff member came on board and examined the books, spotting irregularities everywhere. The woman went off sick and months later, rather than come back when the evidence pointed 100% to her stealing, alleged a similar thing, sexual approaches.
The guy is gay.

Allegations are just that until they are proven. I know that's not ideal but it's how we run things.

You seem to be confusing Mumsnet with a court of law.

I can believe it happened, but I don't see the logic in giving somebody more credibility solely because their share your biological sex

Is that really what women do? Or do women simply consider the fact that men do this to women every day in public and in private so it would be rather silly of them not to believe a woman who says they were groped by a man?

You seem to be confusing Mumsnet with a court of law. Oh do I really? How dumb of me. Silly little woman that I am.

"Yes, I understand what trauma is; and having one's thigh squeezed doesn't cut it."

It's not one time though, is it? It's all the small things like that that add up over years and years that tell you that you have no right to your own space, that men are free to touch you whenever they like, that you don't have a choice. All the times men beep at you when you're walking down the road minding your own business, or tell you to smile when you're perfectly happy, or grope you in a club, or stare at you on a train.

I'm happy to tell these men to fuck off or whatever, but it still bothers me, I still find myself feeling like it's my fault.

As to the original question, the oppressed will often side with the oppressor. It makes them feel like they have control. "If I side with them, it won't happen to me." "If I act like them, they'll treat me equally." It never happens though.

Because it’s irrational and discriminatory to believe a person purely because they don’t have a Y chromosome. Normal people who haven’t been brainwashed by a ‘matriarchy’ as you put it approach all assertions with scepticism and launch an inquiry before choosing to believe them.

@Creepster equally a lot of men never do this and a lot of women never have this done to them.

Lang:
"Women should disclose at the best time for them: and if that involves inflicting maximum damage career-wise to a pervy, groping ex-Etonian who's never suffered a meaningful consequence in his life - I'm not going to do anything else but cheer her on."

Hear hear.
I seriously cannot believe some of these comments on the FWR board, elsewhere on MN, knock yourselves out with the internalised misogyny, but do us a favour, keep it out of the FWR board!

Even "I believe her, but... [insert 'reason']" does not cut it. The 'but' negates all the previous words of the sentence.

And omg, it's not as if BoJo has a stellar reputation when it comes to women. Quite the opposite. Not hard at all to believe. And before the 'bandwagon' sayers chip in, even when multiple women accuse one man of the very same, or similar thing, their 'motives' are still questioned. Cosby, Weinstein, and all the rest. Even when more than 40 of Cosby's victims came forward, there was still the disbelief.

Sexual assault and rape are very commonplace. Certain men have 'reputations' (at least of being 'not safe to be around'). Yet women still do not get believed. Time to believe them, particularly, especially, on a feminist board. No ifs and buts about it.