Times article, injury fears over rugbys transwomen drives referees off pitch

[happydappy2]

Apologies can’t link, but a good article. Surely this can’t go on much longer

I’d far rather Verity plays on the women’s team than Kelly Morgan. I think that even with testosterone, strength isn’t increased to the extent that the person gets the anywhere near the benefit that male bodies do. Even small amounts of testosterone can trigger facial hair. Women are at far more risk from the Kellys in the rugby world than the Veritys.

I'd rather the very idea that Kelly might play on the women's team be dismissed as crazy and dangerous, and that Verity gently be told that if Verity would like to remain on the women's team then Verity will need to stop taking performance enhancing substances.

This is madness. Rugby should be one of the last sports to be mixed sex. We're watching the World Cup at the moment- and I cannot even begin to fathom how a male bodied person can think it's ok to play against a female bodied person. The sheer physicality of the male bodied players would absolutely squash them. Imagine that red-carded tackle on Owen Farrell in the Eng-USA game on a female bodied player! It's downright dangerous to put either player in that position. Not to mention the ref. Madness.

I'd rather the very idea that Kelly might play on the women's team be dismissed as crazy and dangerous, and that Verity gently be told that if Verity would like to remain on the women's team then Verity will need to stop taking performance enhancing substances.

Yes, me too. Why is it so hard to say no to these people?

I’d far rather Verity plays on the women’s team than Kelly Morgan

I don't think it's helpful to play I would rather.

They both, for different reasons, should not play on a women's rugby team.

I don't want men in women's sports, I'm on record saying that quite a lot on mn. But I'm particularly pissed off today at a woman openly and apparently legally flouting anti-doping rules.

All the effort and expense that goes into regulating and trying to prevent and catch and punish drugs cheats in sports, and here we have somebody who can wave the gender magic wand and openly flout the (usual) rules to dope and gain an unfair competitive advantage.

It's not ok.

My DD plays rugby and played happily alongside the boys until the end of primary school. Now in year 8 and in a girls U13 team, I can't imagine her playing against boys' teams any longer - the boys have suddenly started getting considerably bigger! Interestingly, there are countries that allow mixed sex rugby until age 18. The Netherlands being one of them.

I don't think her local club would tolerate males who suddenly decided they wanted to be female and play with the girls' teams (and as a club safeguarding officer I'd be one if the first to vociferously object) but never say never. Thankfully I'm now living a lot further North than my native Brighton area - I imagine the pressure to be woke is a lot stronger there.

Why is it so hard to say no to these people?

It isn't to people who aren't craven cowards.

A friend of DS's plays rugby, and even at 10 and 11, the boys are sorted into teams by height and weight.

The whole thing's a farce, and it must be coming to a head soon.

Transwomen sports cheats - we see you. We know exactly what you're doing.

DS is 15 - he is bigger than me and a solid lump of muscle. He does a lot of sports and is very fit.

Once in a while he messes about and tries his martial arts on me (playing). I used to do MA and I would have no chance against him (even though the discipline I did is more defensive and - in my opinion - a better attack one that what he does). He has been like this for about 2 years now.

Thank god he’s a pussy cat. If he wanted to fight same belt girls in competition (he couldn’t but obviously the way things are these days) I would do everything I could to prevent it.

I’ve lived and breathed rugby for 30 years. I’ve played/coaches etc for near on 23.

When we wanted to set up a women’s team, we were told “sure, go away and get enough numbers, you can use the facilities when it’s worth it”.

Why aren’t we telling trans women the same thing?

Why do they get to piggyback on the efforts biological women have made just so they feel validated.

I’m beginning for the first time to be glad I’m getting towards the end of my playing career. I have no desire to take part in sanctioned assault.

The first time I am expected to coach a man in the guise of women’s rugby will be the last time I do so.

Why is it so hard to say no to these people?

Think that one through. On an individual level and on a political lobby level. Include the fact that if you talk about it in detail on here you'll get deleted, and in RL PC Gull will be wanting a chat with you.

It comes down to, as usual, women being required to get tolerantly and inclusively abused, harmed and oppressed so a very small proportion of those born male can do what they want unhindered. It's bleeding obvious to anyone not on glue.

"I'd rather the very idea that Kelly might play on the women's team be dismissed as crazy and dangerous, and that Verity gently be told that if Verity would like to remain on the women's team then Verity will need to stop taking performance enhancing substances."

That is indeed the logical conclusion, but I am afraid that logic and reason have not been invited to the debate.

Why is it so hard to say no to these people?

Because supporting women's rights in these cases is always mischaracterised as 'transphobic'.

As an aside, I'm always amazed at the prominent role bridesmaids dresses seem to play in the trans man story.

But it's not 'doping' in this case as it's not for performance enhancing

Better tell Alain Baxter as he lost an Olympic medal for trying to treat a cold.

Well this seems to clear a lot up.

Verify no longer plays rugby union.

Probably because she now have to play with men which is no doubt a step too far for her/ him.

twitter.com/veritysmith19/status/1178372389186523137?s=21

You can guarantee that if someone tested positive for amphetamine, no sports body would cheerfully accept it because the person had adhd. Or identified with having it. So why is body dysmorphia an acceptable reason to take banned substances?

If I was any good at a sport where amphetamine based drugs were performance enhancing, I genuinely would be tempted to try and demand my right to use massive doses of them for adhd because of the precedent set for testosterone just to prove a point.

It comes down to, as usual, women being required to get tolerantly and inclusively abused, harmed and oppressed so a very small proportion of those born male can do what they want unhindered. It's bleeding obvious to anyone not on glue.

It’s the same principle as Ruth Hunt commenting that men will always rape women so there’s no point in single sex spaces. Our safety and rights are irrelevant.

"I stand with my trans sisters*

But not with the ones what have a uterus. Yes, Verity, we know.

I also had a male schoolfriend who suffered a spinal playing rugby and was left paraplegic. Its outrageous this is being allowed. I hope any woman injured in service of validating male ‘feelz’ takes the RFU/WRU to the cleaners. Bankrupting the game wouldn’t be enough in my view. The officials who waved the policy through should face the full force of the law. It is grossly negligent.

The Times appear to have issued an apology to Verity
twitter.com/veritysmith19/status/1179062187500945409?s=21

Had a chat about this with DS1 who played Rugby for eight years, all the way up to the men's team. Turns out I misremembered - I thought the boys trained with our local women's team for a while but not after turning 18. He told me that, no, they weren't allowed. They played touch against them once or twice when they were in the U16 age bracket and were already faster, taller and mostly stronger than the women. They weren't allowed to do anything else because it was considered too dangerous for the women. (And our local women's team is really very good indeed.)

Boys aged 15 and 16 deemed too much of a risk. But a grown man? Oh, a grown man is fine. After all, the desire to wear a frock and lipstick clearly renders a man a fragile little flower...

And if anyone could please explain to me why females who identify as trans seem so terribly keen to throw other women under the bus, I would be ever so grateful. I simply cannot understand how they can become such cruel traitors to their own sex.

Boys aged 15 and 16 deemed too much of a risk. But a grown man? Oh, a grown man is fine. After all, the desire to wear a frock and lipstick clearly renders a man a fragile little flower...

All my research points to international policy declaring mixed sex rugby should absolutely NOT happen past age 12.
So essentially once puberty kicks in. Which totally makes sense as that’s when males as a whole become taller, stronger and bigger generally.
This is accepted by everyone, unless you say some magic words in which case the risks and differences seem to vanish! It’s quite the conundrum.

I played rugby all throughout school and then for a woman’s team. At school we couldn’t play with the boys team past 1/2 year at high school as it was deemed too dangerous and the school said their insurers wouldn’t allow it.

As I said upthread, even 10 and 11 year old (boys) are segregated into teams according to height and weight, so as not to hurt other 10 and 11 year old boys.

Women, of course, are fair game.