Times article, injury fears over rugbys transwomen drives referees off pitch

[happydappy2]

Apologies can’t link, but a good article. Surely this can’t go on much longer

I saw some roller derby photos recently (it was a woman’s sport) with a player who was head and shoulders above the others and build more strongly. It’s a contact sport and pretty full on. Now they allow self ID so women will get badly hurt.

I think we see the highest number of males who identify as transgender in those women's sports that involve the most amount of close bodily contact with women.

Roller derby
Rugby

Wonder why that is?

We're not yet seeing quite the same numbers of males enthusiastically embracing women's archery, diving, table tennis or sailing.

It's a real puzzler.

Mermoose
I definitely think that a trans man should not be allowed to take testosterone and play in a woman's team
This is where the whole ideology breaks down. Just because a woman says the words I identify as a man, she can then take testosterone and play in a woman's team. A woman that doesn't identify as a man would be banned from playing if she is found to be taking testosterone.
More fucking lies and more fucking madness.

If Verity takes testosterone then she does not belong on the women's team. If she is happy to play on the men's then that is her choice.

The women's team can only ever be safe and fair if it is restricted to female players who are not taking any performance-enhancing drugs.

My DH was badly injured in a Rugby game a few years ago mainly because he was a lot smaller and lighter than the guy tackling him. Male rugby is not safe for transmen. Female rugby is not safe for transwomen.

In so many sports XX players could be seriously injured by an XY player due to size and strength. It's nothing to do with how someone dresses or identifies, just biology.

I used to play roller derby and there is no way I would get on the track with a biological man also there. I value my bones too much.

Aberhonddu
Grand, I don't know what the disagreement is, then. I said that ideally it would be good if there were clubs for transmen (females on testosterone) and clubs for transwomen (males on oestregen) - separated by sex, and separated out from others of their sex who are not on relevant medication.
Tag rugby is currently often played mixed-sex because there's no contact, but as I said, I don't know enough about it.

If including this biologically male person in women’s sport is inclusive and kind and tolerant to males it is the opposite to females
Verity is biologically female, doped up in testosterone.
Verity isn't male.

I don't see the difference between a female taking testosterone today in and calling themselves a man, and the East German drug cheats in the 80s. It's doping dressed up in a rainbow flag.

Male rugby is not safe for transmen Female rugby is not safe for transwomen

I think you mean male rugby is not safe for transmen, and females are not safe with transwomen playing in their team.

What's the solution?
I think a mixed sex teams for transpeople and anyone else who doesn't mind being in the mixed sex team.

Looking at twitter, Roller Derby is very popular with Ma'ams.

@Qcng That was what I was trying to say but you've said it a lot clearer. Thank you.

I did used to play Mixed Hockey. It was considered by the single sex players to be a crazy game. But you could tell the male players were definitely holding back within tackles against female players.

Women's sports should be solely for women who've not had the physical benefit of levels of testosterone above those found naturally in women.

"I think a mixed sex teams for transpeople and anyone else who doesn't mind being in the mixed sex team"

Seems perfectly reasonable.

And since transgender people are going to struggle to find enough people to make up a team, then surely this is the one area where trans allies can step up to help? They can be in the teams in order to help out their trans siblings.

Seven a side:

Owen Jones, Maria Miller, Peter Tatchell, Jess Bradley, Stephanie Hayden, Lily Madigan, Heather Peto

versus

Laurie Penny, Adrian Harrop, Penny Mordaunt, Ruth Hunt, Sophie Cook, Aimee Challenor, Munroe Bergdorf

Full contact of course.

It is the absolute least that trans allies can do.

Otherwise their support is just empty rhetoric.

Isn't it?

But referees say they have to take it on trust rather than check whether a player has been cleared by the Rugby Football Union (RFU).

Wait, what? So not only are the actual rules dangerous for women players but they're not even operating on the rules; they're operating on self-ID?

Jesus fucking Christ.

But y'know: we don't live in a patriarchy or anything. Perish the thought.

Great idea popchyk I'll identify as the ref so I can judge it as safe for all.

I am certainly looking forward to the Owen Jones/Aimee Challenor match-up.

Going up against each other, no holds barred. No quarter asked; no quarter given.

To quote Jolyon Maughaum, it would a demonstration of how the 'simple joy of sport can transcend fear and hate'.

Wonder if the Beeb would cover it.

Someone upthread said why would transwomen WANT to play in women's teams since it really wouldn't be much of a challenge given their typically male physique.

Another poster noted that transwomen seem to want to play sports which involve a lot of body contact like rugby and roller derby.

I wonder if there are some for whom the idea of being able to beat and batter women and dress it up as sport is really the draw. The other potential reason is validation but that could equally be achieved by being in a woman's darts team, and if you gave even a tiny shit about biological women then presumably that's what you'd do, not something where you could severely harm someone.

That is a dude. With a beard. What the hell are the opposition team supposed to think?

Ineedacupofteafesperately
Yes, agree totally. And such contact sports could also provide limitless opportunities for sexual assault, on top of beating and battering. Rugby tackles, for example.

And where trans is concerned, this continues from the playing field, into the changing room, and the showers.

No.

This is where women lose out big time. Forced to play with Male.bodied people and forced to play with women doped up on testosterone.

Women get beaten battered bruised and broken either way.

Yes it's not safe for transmen to play biological men but its not safe for women either way.

This is where the word no comes in I'm.afraid. they may not like.it but in the Interest of safety and fairness they all have to hear it as far as I'm.concerned.

But doesn't Verity feel the literal violence of being misgendered as female and put on their team, given she identifies as male? At what point will she play with the blokes? Or am I confused?

Yeah cold. What is verity thinking

ineed yes. Plus the hugely increased chance of getting on the team, and minimal chance of injury.

Dd played rugby at a very local level as a preteen. At 10yrs old she was 5'5 and slim, but obviously physically stronger and heavier than most peers. Which meant for a short period instead of being an average player with an average chance of making the team for a match, she was much in demand. Perhaps she should take it back up, her skills might be naturally very average and have no chance of making it on to a team of her peers but at 6' I'm sure she'd make it onto a team of 12yr olds.

pop iirc it's usually sky that does the boxing, which of course they should also be happy to have mixed matches in.

Not read whole thread.

All these sports bodies have decided testosterone levels are literally the only difference between men and women.

So logically a woman on testosterone has all the same attributes, characteristics as a man, and should play with the men.

?? there's no logic here.