Times article, injury fears over rugbys transwomen drives referees off pitch

[happydappy2]

Apologies can’t link, but a good article. Surely this can’t go on much longer

I’m feeling more confused than ever after reading this thread about what exactly those pesky rules for FWR actually cover.

It seems to be completely acceptable to correctly-sex Verity Smith and refer to Verity as “she”. Why is it ok to refer to Verity as she when it is not ok to refer to any of the current crop of TRAs as he? Is it because Verity is biologically female and therefore is still not afforded the same status and courtesy as men, despite identifying as one? It would seem, astonishingly, that the monitors haven’t bothered to report any posters for correctly-sexing Verity. Very confusing.

Fekko Mesmac - based in Leeds. Involved with a West Yorkshire Police. You know.

Oh I thought a spire of bells was clanging there.

The RFU is opening itself up to civil and maybe criminal liability here.

Could be a corporate manslaughter charge.

Verity should be competing in the male leagues, just as the US wrestler Mack Beggs who was fighting against girls at school whilst transitioning and taking testosterone, is now competing against males.
Rugby has the highest incident of doping cases if you look at the UK anti doping site, and in my opinion taking testosterone and playing sport is doping.

*The RFU is opening itself up to civil and maybe criminal liability here.

Could be a corporate manslaughter charge.*

This type of comment is exactly why there cannot be any reasonable discussion on this topic. ( both sides )

This is from the England RFU transgender policy.

A player may only play contact rugby in the sex they were assigned at birth until written confirmation is received from the RFU that they may play in their identified gender, save that a Transgender male player who decides to undergo hormone treatment will not be eligible to participate in the female category of rugby from the date that hormone treatment has commenced.

Why is Verity allowed to play on the women's team when Verity is taking testosterone?

Roller derby is a very rough and dangerous sport. A friend of mine's daughter played it for years but was always breaking bones or getting other serious injuries.Bringing men into women's teams is asking for trouble.
Horribly, it may be that something awful has to happen before people come to their senses on this.

Perhaps verity hasn't started hormone therapy and her facial hair is as a result of her polycystic ovary problems.

Feel free to explain your thinking, killer.

Sale Sharks sued for negligence. Cillian Willis first player to sue an English club and medics for negligence over brain injury.

www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/cillian-willis-concussion-case-due-before-court-next-year-1.3633568

Sports club admits corporate manslaughter:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10468121/Sports-club-admits-corporate-manslaughter-after-banana-boat-death.html

I've just had a look at the world rugby guidelines and these seem to allow people like Verity to compete in the women's teams.

For the avoidance of doubt, a Transgender male Player who decides to undergo hormone treatment will not be eligible to participate in the female category of competition at an World Rugby Tournament after that treatment has commenced, unless and until clause 3.5 applies.

3.5 Once a Transgender Player has satisfied the relevant eligibility requirements and has started participating in World Rugby Tournaments in the category of competition consistent with his/her gender identity, he/she may not then switch back to participating in the other gender category in World Rugby Tournaments unless and until (a) at least four years have passed since the first World Rugby Tournament in which he/she participated as a Transgender Player; and (b) he/she satisfies all of the conditions for eligibility to compete in the other gender category.

I think this means that women who dope with testosterone because they have a male gender identity can play in the women's teams, as long as they have never played in a male team, or at least 4 years have passed since the first game played in a male team.

Nothing in this Policy will be deemed to permit, excuse or justify noncompliance with any of those requirements, including (without limitation) any requirement for an Player to obtain a Therapeutic Use Exemption for the use of a substance on the WADA Prohibited List, such as testosterone, spironolactone or GnRH agonists.

Does this mean that women with a male gender identity have to apply for a therapeutic use exemption to allow them to dope with testosterone?

Perhaps verity hasn't started hormone therapy and her facial hair is as a result of her polycystic ovary problems.

However, since taking testosterone he has developed a full beard and last year he was attacked by a player on an opposing rugby team before being outed on the internet as transgender.

From here: www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/transgender-rugby-player-rival-spits-1945162

@Popchyk

Because their has to be a reasonable debate on this and not people just throwing random comments out with out backing it up.

You have now so people can read and form a view point.

..

Thank you GeorgeFayne for your excellent post bringing some perspective.

I am reminded of a young lad of my acquaintance who had meningitis as a toddler leaving him severely physically, though not mentally, disabled.

He is now in his early 20s. He cannot close his mouth, cannot eat properly, cannot talk, can only walk very small distances, has poor motor skills so uses a large keys keyboard to communicate.

There are a million ordinary things he will never be able to do, yet he never whinges and whines about how 'oppressed' he is. He makes the most of his life and has a wicked sense of humour. He is a pleasure to be around.

When I hear 'boo hoo 'snot fair if I don't get to cheat at sport' I think of him and cannot find words to express my contempt for people who are perfectly able bodied and who no one is suggesting should not be allowed to compete as the sex they actually are provided they abide by the same doping rules as the rest of us.

Here's a rugby lawyer explaining his thoughts:

twitter.com/timoconnorbl/status/1165193599098720257

"However, my primary concern here isn’t fairness at elite levels, which is a small if high-profile sample of all participants. I’m much more concerned about safety at lower levels in a collision sport. The risks are such it has to have proper risk assessment.

A policy based - insofar as appears to be here - on a study of small samples at distance level on performance in running (the paper expressly noting it doesn’t cover explosive/power events) is not a performance assessment for a collision sport, still less risk assessment.

Full and proper risk assessments and trials were done on goggles and prostheses in the pitch, and are being done on the rule changes based on your research. I cannot understand how similar assessments are not done here".

Sign me up for a ticket to watch that game, Popchyk.

The rules around testosterone exist because in females it's a performance enhancing drug. Motivation is not the issue. You can't say to one woman that she can't take it as it's cheating and another that she can. Well evidently you can, but it's bullshit.

I'm sorry, but if the "treatment" for gender dysphoria results in an unsafe or competitive advantage over other players, then it's appropriate to say inclusion is just not an option.

I agree.

@Popchyk

Thanks to that link for the lawyer.

He is not an in house rugby lawyer though.

He is a barrister who happens to represent rugby clients at on field disciplinary hearings or rugby related issues.

Many barristers do this and I wouldn't class him as a specialist although his points are interesting

You can't say to one woman that she can't take it as it's cheating and another that she can. Well evidently you can, but it's bullshit.

Also, I don't see how anyone could argue that they have a medical need to take testosterone, because gender dysphoria is no longer considered to be an illness. I don't think you could get a medical exemption to take a drug for a non-medical condition, could you?

But doesn't Verity feel the literal violence of being misgendered as female and put on their team, given she identifies as male? At what point will she play with the blokes? Or am I confused?

How does she possibly deal with the crippling dysphoria in order to go out on the field and play? Truly awe inspiring.

This type of comment is exactly why there cannot be any reasonable discussion on this topic. ( both sides )

Why?

@Ineedacupofteadesperately exactly this. Whilst being applauded from the sidelines.

killler, he makes the point that rugby goggles were extensively trialled and risk assessed before they were permitted by the RFU. And rightly so because they might have had the potential to impact on player welfare.

But putting males into women's rugby has not been risk assessed by the RFU. At all. Player welfare (for the women) has not even been considered. And yet the potential impacts for injury are considerable.

As a lawyer, he found that alarming.