Times article, injury fears over rugbys transwomen drives referees off pitch

[happydappy2]

Apologies can’t link, but a good article. Surely this can’t go on much longer

I would imagine that this trans man who still is identifying as female hence name will not play a physical contact game with men because

1. She will never have the same physicality as a male rugby player despite the hormone treatment thus is likely to be injured

2 once she plays men's rugby any return to the female rugby that is when she will be subject to testing of hormone levels

1. The acceptance by men team or any male team opposition to a 'female' playing. Hate to think what could happen in a scrum !

At the moment she a born female , taking hormones , still identifying it would appear as female , therefore no cause or right to test her.

At the moment she a born female , taking hormones , still identifying it would appear as female , therefore no cause or right to test her.*

If she's born female and taking hormones then surely there's cause and right to suspect verity of doping and test accordingly?

So, my understanding up to now:

women who have a feeling about identifying as men and are taking testosterone, are allowed in women's sports; but if women are taking part in the same sport and taking testosterone but not identifying as men, then they are disallowed.

That is just as bad as admitting men into women sports. It is allowing some women to take banned substances, because of their gender feelz; but such doping is prohibited for women who are simply women.

Move on and we can become more tolerant, inclusive and understanding.

And also a lot more frequently injured. I knew a boy who ended up paralyzed as the result of a rugby collision as a teenager. Think how much more common it will be if we've effectively encouraged mixed sex rugby for adults! Yay, progress!

Also, in a sporting context taking testosterone is doping, so as unhappy as it will make Verity I'm afraid Verity should no longer be allowed to play on the women's team unless Verity willingly gives up the T shots. Which Verity would no doubt choose not to do, which should logically be considered as a choice to forfeit playing the game rather than an indication that the rules should be bent because taking testosterone is just really important to some people.

Women’s sport will have to go underground. Secret venues at midnight. Code words and lookouts. Camoflague kit and underpants checks. The first rule of women’s cricket is that no-one talks about women’s cricket.

I can’t even see how we got to the point that otherwise ordinary organisations made up of, presumably rational citizens, are making rules which defy biology, science and commonsense, in order to cater to the demands of a small number of men with a paraphilia.

But it's not 'doping' in this case as it's not for performance enhancing and no doubt will come under some sort of exemption.

Those of you saying that as she is taking hormones to be a man she should play men's rugby are the same who are up in arms when a trans woman taking female hormones wants to play female sport.

I think that this particular player is manipulating the rules around gender separation of rugby. Cake and eat it comes to mind.

@DancelikeEmmaGoldman

The person in the article , Verity, was born a woman. No male invading female space here.

The intention of taking testosterone may not be to be performance-enhance, but there is no doubt at all that it will be performance-enhancing.

Verity should not play men’s rugby because it wouldn’t be safe for Verity, and Verity should not be playing women’s rugby while taking testosterone because it gives performance-enhancing effects, hence why it’s a banned substance. There should not be a drug testing exemption for Verity just because of Verity’s feelings.

And if that doesn’t seem “inclusive” for Verity, then I don’t mind, because I’m thinking about the women who have to tackle Verity, scrum against Verity, and be tackled by someone whose body has been enhanced by testosterone. So I am being inclusive of way more people overall.

The person in the article , Verity, was born a woman. No male invading female space here.

Yes, I know. I generally manage to read for comprehension.

The point is that there are many men seeking to play women’s sport, by pretending to be women. For example Hannah Mouncey and Laurel Hubbard.

The player known as Verity is a different issue, since she’s a woman, playing in a women’s league, but with the additional testosterone, which is illegal for other female players.

In all avenues of life, making life-changing decisions closes off some avenues of opportunity. Having children means exchanging one kind of freedom for another kind of satisfaction, for example.

The decision to present as the opposite sex, should, sensibly, preclude the opportunity of playing some kinds of competitive sport because it would be unfair, unethical or unwise. That’s life; having your cake and eating it too, often means some people get no cake at all.

Another poster noted that transwomen seem to want to play sports which involve a lot of body contact like rugby and roller derby.

I'm wondering if the pattern is just due to superior strength and power being the biggest natural advantage men have over women. I mean, many fairly unathletic, unskilled men could beat most women in competitions which rely purely on physicality, without too much trouble.

Sport where brute strength needs to be coupled with considerable skill might be a bigger ask.

Looks like in later versions of the Sunday Times they are using a photo of a male trans rugby player (the one who can 'fold women like deckchairs' instead of a female trans rugby player. Much better
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/too-strong-trans-players-in-womens-rugby-are-driving-referees-away-0jnlvk89m?shareToken=53caabf1b0b1e123a13eff59c6ea949b&fbclid=IwAR0z_yCyxS0Xb6q7vfvYf196kXEaLWP3lk0RJl4-bs94VVwGxFDv_1HmRVw

I’m glad they have changed the picture. Ultimately its not fair or safe for women to be expected to play against biological males who identify as women, or women who are doping. There is always the option of tag rugby which is none contact. Or if Verity feels their life would crumble without rugby, they could referee.

What's the solution?
I think a mixed sex teams for transpeople and anyone else who doesn't mind being in the mixed sex team.

What Qcng says. This is the only fair way. Third space is needed in sports. Then nobody need label themselves if they didn’t want to, everyone would know the rules at the outset, nobody would be taken by surprise by opposite-sex bodies in the showers, changing room, opposite-sex people having contact with them on the pitch.

Fairness in physical equivalencies wouldn’t be a basis for playing the third space team, it would be just based on enabling sports participation for all.

Maybe wealthy mega ‘equality’ charity Stonewall could sponsor it, you don’t see them often spending any money (just doing activities to earn or raise it)?

This whole political imposition on women is so fucking ridiculous.

Why do women keep being asked to be kind, over staying physically safe? (Or over feeling comfortable? Or over being able to hang out with just their female mates? Or over being able to participate at all, if those women can’t be in a mixed sex environment for whatever reason?

Why do men keep not being affected by this at all? Why do men still get to ignore the effects on women this ‘inclusion’ is creating or worse, still get to set the rules which affect women?

Why is this genderist politics not being immediately challenged as being MASSIVELY SEXIST and ANTI WOMAN?

If for any other reason there were suddenly lobbying for women players and refs to stop playing their own game to save their own safety, dignity, privacy or if any new policies were brought in by any governing body in sport forcing that effect.. there’d be public uproar! Everyone would be like fuck off with your sexism and woman hating.

^ ^ This situation IS that situation!
I really think we have to just keep on making noise to the sporting authorities and fast before more girls and women get put off from playing sport, an exclusion which we know will negatively affect their health, happiness (and possibly wealth if they are potential or actual professional players.)

The authorities need to do their jobs and challenge this by setting some proper rules and enforcing them NOW before they get women hurt or killed and have to face court cases.

Yes chatty, why must women accept feeling uncomfortable so that people who are biologically male don't have to feel uncomfortable? We can easily argue with the stupidity of having mixed sex teams, and I used to think that it was those practical things that only mattered. Until I realised that it was men saying I feel like I'm a woman , and women are not allowed to say, I feel nothing like a transwoman. Because men have spoken.

Before, transgender players couldn’t play for a ladies team. Now, they can play in the gender they were born in depending upon physicality and ability.

Hilarious, so the bio men want to play with the females, the bio women masquerading as men still want to play with the females.

“A lot of people look at me and as soon as they see that facial hair, that’s it,” he says. “The biggest problem is from people who don’t understand

Ok, so you have been taking testosterone in order to gain male secondary sex characteristics so people think you are male and then get upset when people think you are male......

Poor Verity wasn't allowed to play when the opposing team clocked what was going on, what a bunch of TERFS they must be!

RFU policy states that: "a Transgender male player who decides to undergo hormone therapy will not be eligible to participate in the female category of
rugby from the date that hormone therapy has commenced"

So I don't understand how Verity is allowed to play women's rugby?

As much as this is not a popular view in 2019, there are circumstances where certain sports are just not an option for some individuals.

For example, my male patient with only one kidney is not allowed to play contact sports. I have another adolescent patient with a colostomy who would love to wrestle, but cannot. A female patient of mine had to discontinue cheerleading because it was causing complications with her peritoneal dialysis. All of these young people managed their disappointment with great maturity and insight, acknowledging that their medical conditions had consequences that were far reaching, but beyond their control.

I'm sorry, but if the "treatment" for gender dysphoria results in an unsafe or competitive advantage over other players, then it's appropriate to say inclusion is just not an option.

I'm pretty sure the RFU's trans policy has changed very recently. The current policy is here

Can anyone find the old policy?

From memory it said that trans players could play for the opposite sex team, subject to an assessment that they were of an appropriate size and weight to play in that team safely. The size/weight/strength criterion seems to have been dropped from what I can see, even though that was for safety reasons.

Women's sports will have to go underground
This won't be necessary if the governing bodies stop behaving like cowardly snivelling shits and revert to the old rules of women's competitions being open only to people with xx chromosomes (intersex competitors to be assessed on an individual basis), and enforce rules against doping.

From the article

Last month Kelly Morgan, a trans woman, said she wanted to play in the Welsh women’s leagues despite her physical advantage. “I do feel guilt but what can you do?” she said

Well you could stop trying to destroy women’s sport for your validation. Just a thought

And

The RFU refused to say how many trans people it had authorised to play in their identified gender. It also did not respond to questions about injuries involving women and trans players

Reminds me of the NSPCC - logical questions we cannot answer! Go silent

Extremely sensible post, GeorgeFayne.

DH can't do the sport we used to love (which in practice means I can't either) because of medical reasons. There's simply no point whining about it, just have to find other things to do.

In the case of rugby, TW and TM physically modified due to testosterone should pay in the non-women's team if it's physically safe enough for them, or else find alternative non-contact sports. In non-contact sports there should be nothing to stop them participating in non-women's sports (the 'open' category formerly designated 'men's') - of course, they might not necessarily win but frankly, tough. Other people being treated a huge range of physical and mental conditions can't win either.

Interesting language from Verity Smith (the bearded person playing with Rotherham Ladies Club) who was born female and works for MESMAC - Verity describes themselves as ‘an LGBT’ - is this another post-facts language shift? These are completely different categories.

www.rotherhamadvertiser.co.uk/sport/view,worth-fighting-for-the-sporting-story-of-transmale-rugby-player-verity-smit_29725.htm

Mesmac - where have I heard that?