Times article, injury fears over rugbys transwomen drives referees off pitch

[happydappy2]

Apologies can’t link, but a good article. Surely this can’t go on much longer

I wonder if there are some for whom the idea of being able to beat and batter women and dress it up as sport is really the draw. The other potential reason is validation but that could equally be achieved by being in a woman's darts team, and if you gave even a tiny shit about biological women then presumably that's what you'd do, not something where you could severely harm someone.

YY

@Popchyk

Thank you for the summary saves me reading the link

Just to throw a grenade in the works Verity now play wheelchair rugby league

twitter.com/bbc5live/status/1102512689157308417?s=21

So is wheelchair rugby also for able-bodied people?

I always thought that it was for those people who actually needed a wheelchair all of the time.

Maybe there's a league where able-bodied and people with a physical disability requiring a wheelchair play in a mixed ability match?

Which is fine if everyone knows the rules.

I think the average person in the street would assume that all the competitors actually needed the wheelchair at all times, though.

What are you telling me now?

People who don't use or need a wheelchair in day to day life, play wheelchair sports?

That's fucking outrageous.

So is wheelchair rugby also for able-bodied people

It would appear so but why does she/ he want to do it ? To prove another point ?

I think it’s within the rules of wheelchair rugby that one, or maybe two people on each side are able bodied. Pretty sure I’ve seen that on tv.

So is wheelchair rugby also for able-bodied people

I think this is a slightly different issue. I know a couple of able bodied blokes who play wheelchair basketball and are welcomed because without them there would not be sufficient numbers for those who are wheelchair-bound to create teams.

It obviously is something that has to be done at the request of wheelchair users and not forced upon them but it can in some circumstances allow for inclusion rather than being an imposition. I have no idea whether or not that is true in Verity's case.

Here's a report on Verity Smith from last year which confirms that they are taking testosterone as part of their transition and also includes the following:

He is still eligible to play for a women’s team at this stage of transitioning but he knows there will come a time when he will have to switch and play for a men’s side.

www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/transgender-rugby-player-rival-spits-1945162

If I remember correctly wheelchair rugby players are graded on disability, and the team is only allowed a certain number of points on the pitch at the time. I'm not an expert by the way, just an occasional spectator

Fair enough if it is in the rules that a certain number of able-bodied competitors can also take part. And if it works to the benefit of people who do have a physical disability, then great. Everyone is happy.

The good thing is that this is an area where Verity can use her passion, without any detriment to women. It is already mixed sex.

Marvellous.

As an aside: weren't the Challenors involved in wheelchair rugby?

There's an article about wheelchair rugby here. It seems to be mixed sex and a mix of disabled and able-bodied. Sounds like the right team for Verity to play in.

www.skysports.com/rugby-league/news/12196/11819041/wheelchair-rugby-league-is-this-the-most-inclusive-sport

OK cool

Idea of hordes of non disabled people taking up sports for disabled people and pushing disabled people out pissed me off.

Pleased to hear its not the case.

I sincerely hope that's the correct interpretation and Verity has found a positive way to play rugby without impacting the women's game. That would be an excellent outcome.
I'm somewhat curious as to whether this sort of approach is also adopted by trans people born and socialised male...

I note verity's bbc quote:
'“In every sports you come across you’re going to find somebody that is at the top level and somebody at bottom level”

If trans people don't want to destroy women's sports, I guess they should take note and be prepared to be lower in the testosterone-benefitted league rather than higher in the non-T league? Or take a side-step as it seems verity has done.

Comments are heartening on the article.

I did some digging recently with regard to males being included in female rugby teams.

All international policies I found say that mixed sex contact rugby should not be played after age 12.

However say the magic words, I identify as a woman and hey presto it’s suddenly absolutely fine.

U18 trans identified males can play in female teams as long as they claim to be women and their parents agree to let them play.

How is a 17 year old trans identified male different from a 17 year old male? How is the risk lessened in any way? Does the signing of the declaration mitigate the risk faced by the females on the team?

Makes me so bloody angry.

Seven a side:

Owen Jones, Maria Miller, Peter Tatchell, Jess Bradley, Stephanie Hayden, Lily Madigan, Heather Peto

versus

Laurie Penny, Adrian Harrop, Penny Mordaunt, Ruth Hunt, Sophie Cook, Aimee Challenor, Munroe Bergdorf

I would pay good money to see that.

Not rugby related but sports related. The IAAF have included a mixed 400m relay event at the Athletics World Championships in Doha. Teams of 2 women and 2 men, the semi finals were yesterday and it showcased how much faster (and bigger) the men were. Couldn't help wondering what had motivated the IAAF to include the event

I do feel guilt but what can you do?

I've seen this quote so much and it boils my blood.

What you can do Verity is to stop playing a high risk contact sport while you are under the effects of testosterone. It's called doping, and is outlawed for a good reason.

What do WADA say about it all?

That quote isn't Verity, coffee, that quote is Kelly

Verity is merely taking testosterone at a level which would count as cheating were it to be undertaken by anyone who shared Verity's biological sex but didn't utter the magic words " I feel trans."

Kelly on the other hand is biologically male and is not merely participating unfairly, but is putting Kelly's competitors at risk of serious injury (including spinal injuries).

I stand corrected.

Again, why should there be exemptions for people like Verity? Why are their needs more important than everyone else's?

There should not be exceptions for Verity. Both Verity and Kelly are cheating, on any morally comprehensible understanding of the word "cheating" (they are not "cheating" according to the batshit rules of the RFU who decided to sacrifice fairness and safety on the altar of inclusivity).

But in addition to cheating, Kelly is also putting women's bodily safety at risk.

It's kind of like the difference between burglary and aggravated burglary - both are wrong, but the latter (where the householder gets beaten up) rightly attracts a higher sentence.

It's almost like the old, non-"kind" system of separating sporting leagues by sex was the correct one.

And again, anecdote from my youth - 17 year old boy paralyzed by a rugby injury. Now imagine the same force that paralyzed him hitting a girl or woman's smaller body with the less thick bones and in particular the less thick neck.

I'm not seeing what's kind about allowing that to happen.