How should we treat trans people?

[coffeeplease16]

I have been browsing the feminist thread with interest and been reading lots of arguments that accepting trans = encroaching on women’s rights and women’s only spaces. If you yourself believe that you can’t change sex, and being a women = having a vagina - how do you think we should include trans people in our society? I am genuinely interested, and not meaning to be goady. What is the ideal - how can we protect the rights of women without ostracising trans people from our society?

I didn't ask you about Buck Angel, Decomposing.

Would you rather the trans-identified people in your single-sex spaces were the same sex as you, or the opposite sex to you?

You can answer in one word. Same or opposite?

Yes I support TM with the solutions they want.

But why do you support TM with whatever solutions they want but not tw?

If you want a rule that says everyone has to abide by their birth sex then that applies to everyone surely?

Tyrotoxicity

I can't answer in one word because, for me, it's not that simple.

My answer is "it depends".

If you want a rule that says everyone has to abide by their birth sex then that applies to everyone surely?

Do you not understand the lack of symmetry? Men are a danger to women. Women are not a danger to men.

Do you not understand the lack of symmetry? Men are a danger to women. Women are not a danger to men.

But you're ignoring the fact that it's not just about danger.

Who wants a rule that everyone has to 'abide' by their birth sex? What does that mean?

Birth sex is a fact that can't be changed. Ever. No matter what you do cosmetically to the outside of your body the sex stays there and it can be read, it is apparent, humans are designed and hard wired to pick up on this stuff because basic evolution requires it. No one 'has' to do anything or 'can' do anything, it just is.

Gendered dress and behaviour and stereotypes is rubbish, anyone can wear and do anything regardless of their biology, and should be able to do so free of harassment or discrimination because their choices don't match other people's stereotypes.

Single sex spaces for women are necessary for obvious and very frequently discussed reasons based on the biology of being born female, and should be kept to birth sex only.

For TM who may prefer not to use those spaces absolutely third spaces should be available to them.

Everyone's needs respected and met.

DecomposingComposers

Here's a clue for you...

Men/males are responsible for 98% of sexual assaults (including rape/penetration). Adding cross-sex hormones and the juxtaposition of requiring validation from biological females (not all TW) against claiming to be female (not all TW) does not reduce the risk of them assaulting other people. TW are men who identify with women and attempt to embody "female/women" but retain the biological sex markers "male" regardless of surgical intervention. Whether a man has breast implants and a faux vulva and faux vagina (trans), or suffering from DSD, or with fully intact reproductive organs and presents ambiguously, or however he presents he is still 98% likely to sexually assault.

Women/females are responsible for 2% of sexual assaults (including rape/penetration with an object or digit). Adding cross-sex hormones and the juxtaposition of requiring validation from biological males (not all TM) against claiming to be male (not all TM) does not increase the risk of them assaulting other people. TM are women who identify with men and attempt to embody "male/men" but retain the biological sex markers "female" regardless of surgical intervention. Whether a woman has a beard and a faux penis (trans), or suffering from PCOS or a DSD, or with fully intact reproductive organs and presents ambiguously, or however she presents she is still only 2% likely to sexually assault.

This isn't complicated; it isn't theoretical maths, it isn't the ultimate question, it isn't even as difficult as what to have for dinner.

And your "it depends" overrules everyone else's "nah, we'll stick with single-sex, thanks"?

Yes, there's nuance. Yes, there are fragile people to accommodate. A lot of them are female, and we need female-only spaces.

Why are you so unwilling to defend our right to female-only spaces?

Do you get freaked out by the butchest lesbians too? Because that seems a little off to me.

But you're ignoring the fact that it's not just about danger.

You're ignoring the fact that danger is a factor.

The result of this deeply male-dominated culture is that the male experience, the male perspective, has come to be seen as universal, while the female experiencethat of half the global population, after allis seen as, well, niche.

~Caroline Criado-Pérez, Invisible Women

98-99% of all rape and sexual assault are committed by males (regardless of gender ID).

90% + of victims of rape and sexual assault are female (regardless of gender ID).

It is the height of misogyny to ignore these facts, or the risk that males (as a class) pose to females (as a class).

The irony is that it is trans advocates who are ultimately the ones who try to erase the existence of trans women. Because if trans women were really women, then there would be no such thing as trans women. Trans women are by definition males who identify as women. One can argue long and hard about why they want to do that, but that's what a transwoman is. And the trans community is very strict on this point--they get furious if any female tries to say she is a trans woman. THEREFORE, even the trans community acknowledge that trans women have male bodies.

Many posters on this board talk about having different reactions to men than women, how they behave differently when talking to a man than a woman, presence of a man changing the dynamic of a group etc etc.

What makes you think that these reactions are a choice? These reactions are survival mechanisms stemming from a lifetime of social conditioning and, for too many of us, prior sexual assaults.

My reaction to a man is always coloured by the knowledge that he could rape me and leave me pregnant, that he could easily batter me or murder me. I spent the first seven months of this year feeling nauseous if I looked at a good-looking man, because I would remember that there's a one-in-three chance that he thinks that failing to stop when asked isn't rape, and then I would feel sick with fear. (FYI Rape Crisis said I'm not crazy, just experiencing a delayed trauma response to childhood sexual violence.) I object stridently to the transactivist idea that I'm supposed to somehow switch that response off when a man says he is a woman. I object equally stridently to your idea that I should switch that response on when faced with a woman who says she is a man. What about people like Pips Bunce? Am I supposed to be scared of him when he is in a suit and not scared on dress days?

Oh wait, I think I know the answer to this one. I'm supposed to pretend at all times that men don't have built-in rape weapons and that I'm not scared of them, even when I'm so scared that my mouth is dry, I'm sweating, and my IBS is flaring. I'm supposed to pretend to be treating transwomen like women even whilst I appease and defer to them out of fear of typically male violent reprisal. I'm supposed to pretend to treat transmen like men even though they cannot rape me nor leave me pregnant. I'm supposed to pretend to defer to them even though I don't need to. Fuck that noise, it's not going to happen. Human brains don't work like that. Orwell's 1984, book 1 chapter 1, describes the mental effort and hypervigilance required to constantly feign emotions. It's unreasonable to expect this of women and unhealthy for us to attempt it.

Attempting to change reality by fiat, and changing people's outward reactions by fiat and the threat of reprisals, is right into 1984 territory. I'm thinking of the scene in book 2 chapter 9 where, on the sixth day of Hate Week, the official line suddenly changes to say that Oceania is at war with Eastasia and always has been even though in fact Oceania.had been at war with Eurasia up until then. The orator at the rally changes who he's propagandising about mid-sentence upon being passed a note. Everyone has to pretend that nothing has changed even though they all know that in fact it has, for fear of being dragged off to MiniLove and tortured.

"Oceania was at war with Eastasia: Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia. [...] no reference to the war with Eurasia, or the alliance with Eastasia, should remain in existence anywhere."

A transwoman is a woman: a transwoman has always been a woman. [...] no reference to her sex, or her former name, should remain in existence anywhere.

A transman is a man: a transman has always been a man. [...] no reference to his sex, or his former name, should remain in existence anywhere.

1984 was supposed to be a warning, not a manual.

If you want a rule that says everyone has to abide by their birth sex

What does that even mean?

My answer is "it depends".

We can't make policy based on your personal "it depends" rules.

@StopThePlanet
Your posts have been both uncomfortable reading and inspiring, thank you for them.
@coffeeplease16
My answer to your question 'How should we treat Transpeople? With the dignity and respect that any other person should have. For me there will always be the overriding factor that human beings cannot change sex. For clarity. I'll never believe that lie.
I'd also add that there is only one way to be a woman, and that is to be born a woman. Not worn as fucking woman face, if a man decides to "become" a woman then he should be treated with extreme suspicion and given a very wide berth.
I'd rather be rude than tell a lie.
A man can never be a woman, a Lesbian can never have a penis, I am Aber from Aberonddu, I will never submit

By debating whether they are women or not is essentially asking are they valid as women. It’s debating their existence because if they say they really are women and you say they are not, you’re basically saying that what they say they are, doesn’t actually exist.

I can help you with the debating bit. Transwomen are not women; trans men are not men.

I’d also argue that if you perceive your entire existence hinges on the validation of a chosen identity by outsiders, then you certainly have a mental illness. The capacity for self-validation and a coherent sense of self driven by self-awareness is an important component of being an adult human.

It is one of the great tragedies of being a woman that our socialisation into femininity teaches us to seek constant external validation. It is neither healthy nor useful to us, particularly as we age. Men aping the worst and most damaging aspects of female socialisation is not an indicator of mental well-being.

I believe transwomen, (and men exist). What I don’t believe is the explanation of their chosen “identity”.

Do I believe there are men who desire to present as womem, or women who wish to present as men? Of course. You can’t turn around lately without falling over the adherents of that narrative.

Do I believe they are literally of the other sex, physically or mentally? No. Never.

Does that make them stop existing? Certainly not. Even in the ontological fog which seems to permeate the trans narrative, material reality is still in operation.

I have no interest in marginalising transpeople, denying them any of the rights and benefits which accrue to humans in society. I want them to access the kind of physical and mental healthcare which will prevent or cure the surgical and drug-induced mutilation of their normal, healthy bodies.

I do not believe that while I wrote this, a single transperson winked out of existence.

feeling nauseous if I looked at a good-looking man

Not because I think unattractive men can't rape, but because "he's cute" followed by "there's a one-third chance that he doesn't respect 'stop'" leads to nausea:.fear and desire combining into disgust at men for being violent and disgust at myself for desiring them (as if desire is a choice). If it was possible to choose sexual orientation, I'd have turned lesbian already.

But hey, just keep bullshitting that women can switch off and on our trauma responses and other conditioned reactions when someone of one sex utters the magic words "I identity as...".

The female born trans people do need specific women's rights, because they may need access to abortion services etc.

I don't follow this.

What is so tricky to grasp exactly?

There are many different ways to be a woman nowadays. Including taking testosterone, chopping your tits off and growing a beard.
The end.

I mean in every sense.Many posters on this board talk about having different reactions to men than women, how they behave differently when talking to a man than a woman, presence of a man changing the dynamic of a group etc etc

Yes, I know and understand this.

It would seem that trans people are wanting to buy in to 'gender' rules and roles; most likely ( for men) focusing on themselves as being 'more emotionally expressive', wearing colourful clothing or 'sexy' clothing, being empathic etc......and yet so much of the behaviour we see from radical TRAS is distinctly 'unfeminine'. There's not much acquiescence or submission going on; rather a centring of themselves and a demand that everyone focus on them and their needs. This is not the gendered feminine role at all.

But beyond this, it is impossible to change your sex, and incredibly difficult to undo socialisation related to this. People will still register your sex, even if at first it takes them a while to unpack what is going on - re, the visual clues of gendered presentation. You can't change other people's instinctive responses.

But why do you support TM with whatever solutions they want but not tw?

Because females tend to register physical or sexual threat from males - not so much from females. There is evidence, growing by the day, that many men presenting as women still behave and respond in masculine' ways. Voyeurism, sexual fetish, violence, threat.

The problem is that in public spaces we are confronted with strangers. At home we share intimate spaces with people of the opposite sex and not, necessarily, feel threatened ( although the sexed 'dissonance' still never departs).

Women require single sex 'public' spaces for all of the reasons that even you yourself must be more than familiar with. For the same reason that women all around the world need or seek single sex spaces.

I don't want a fetishistic AGP trans woman in an 'intimate' female public space with me; a changing room, a women's shelter.....and it is not fair nor right that males should compete in women's sports or use women only short lists etc.

But you're ignoring the fact that it's not just about danger

What else is it about then, in your view?

I don't understand why people who are trans are so ashamed of being trans (if they were proud they wouldn't need to try and erase their past and try to enforce pronouns etc

Some get treatment and move on with their lives in their acquired sex. They simply see themselves as a man or a woman. Like any medical condition you get the treatment and hopefully move forward, you don’t keep identifying as that condition. Although they’ll always be someone who went through it of course, it shouldn’t have to define them.

So their born sex doesn't define them. Their transition doesn't define them. But their inner sense of gender defines them, even though it would go against how the majority of people they come across would define them visually and how biology defines them?