How should we treat trans people?

[coffeeplease16]

I have been browsing the feminist thread with interest and been reading lots of arguments that accepting trans = encroaching on women’s rights and women’s only spaces. If you yourself believe that you can’t change sex, and being a women = having a vagina - how do you think we should include trans people in our society? I am genuinely interested, and not meaning to be goady. What is the ideal - how can we protect the rights of women without ostracising trans people from our society?

You can't 'acquire' a sex.

I'm really bothered that you seem stuck on gendered stereotypes of behaviour and 'treatment'. Can you not see what you are saying?

It isn’t just about stereotypical behaviour. Some people want (need) to be perceived as the opposite physical sex to which they were born.

Some achieve it better than others and they have to make their peace with that one way or another.

Some people want (need) to be perceived as the opposite physical sex to which they were born.

We have no control over how others perceive us. Making this a core part of our identity is bound to end in disappointment.

Some people want to be perceived as the opposite sex

And some people want their sex to be completely irrelevant to how people treat them

but it's not. People are discriminated against because of their sex.

Hence sex based protections and rights

If I could be perceived as the opposite sex that would be a suitable alternative to my sex being irrellevent because then I would have avoided rape. I would have avoided harresment, I would be a manager not a monkey.

But without severe medical intervention that's not realistic for me.

I feel that the trans community is giving me a choice of medical mutilisation or acceptance of rape and other discrimination

We have no control over how others perceive us. Making this a core part of our identity is bound to end in disappointment.

And attempting to force others to change what they see and hear when they look at someone, or to lie about what they perceive, is a. doomed to failure and b. an unacceptable imposition on their space, freedom, and rights. This is something that doesn't get said often enough - trying to force people to deny the evidence of their own senses is wrong. It's gaslighting on a cultural scale.

Although they’ll always be someone who went through it of course, it shouldn’t have to define them

But the whole gender ideology hinges on 'identities', definitions and labels.

Transsexualism is not quite the same prospect as modern trangenderism.

It isn’t just about stereotypical behaviour. Some people want (need) to be perceived as the opposite physical sex to which they were born.
Some achieve it better than others and they have to make their peace with that one way or another

Many, even most, of us would like to identify out of gendered expectations and roles.

What you are suggesting seems to be driven by an internal struggle with the social definitions and prescriptions of gender. The solution is to widen the 'bandwidth' of what it means to be male or female. This is what liberation movements have been attempting for the last 50 years. There is nothing unique or special in the struggles that supposed 'trans' people face - just their perceived solutions to internal conflict and dissonance.

Why are transwomen and transmen so ashamed to be trans?
They aren't going to gain acceptance and recognition by society if they are constantly hiding behind identities (most don't pass anyway) and erasing details from their past.

Gays and lesbians didn't gain rights and acceptance by trying to erase themselves and pass as straight. They made an effort to highlight that they are distinct from heterosexuals but no less worthy of having the same rights to jobs, housing, and other legal protections.

The trans movement isn't going to gain respect and acceptance by aggressively demanding it whilst at the same time saying they are so fragile that they fall apart if the entire world doesn't behave as they wish.

The trans movement needs to start taking pride in being trans. Self-esteem and self-respect goes a long way. They need to say we are not men or women, but transwomen and transmen. We should not be discriminated against when applying for jobs or access to housing or other legal protections. We have a right to live peacefully without being harassed or targeted by violent individuals. We might need access to specialised healthcare - some of this will be due to our natal sex and other issues might be due to transition, therefore we need funding for separate healthcare and research, mental health services, counselling. Also access to third spaces that are separate from single sex ones. And so on.

I'm sure the vast majority of people would support such endeavours. The trans movement is only making things harder for themselves by focusing on gaining privileges instead of rights and it will ultimately hurt trans people because public sympathy will dwindle.

I'm open to there being an extension of legal categories if it would help define the law more accurately - man, woman, transwoman, transman.
A gender recognition certificate should enable a person to gain entry into the protected legal category of transwoman or transman. And there should be a sensible process and framework to ensure individuals are not transitioning due to unresolved trauma or mental health problems. Extreme safeguarding and care for children who are dealing with dysphoria - watchful waiting etc. Transitioning is only available to adults with a way to handle those who might choose to detransition in future and go back to the legal categories of woman / man.

We have no control over how others perceive us. Making this a core part of our identity is bound to end in disappointment

Indeed! Which is why we now have so many de-transitioners - who were once convinced they had been born in the wrong body. Also those older transsexuals who have come to terms with the fact that they are actually men who have a particular psychological 'condition' which makes them want to appear as women.

So their born sex doesn't define them. Their transition doesn't define them. .....

Obviously we’re all the sum of our life experiences. But just because you have had depression, or heart disease or herpes or ‘condition x’ doesn’t mean it has to define your entire being or that you have to talk about it in every situation, whether it’s obvious to others or not.

You can’t control how people perceive you. Trying to control that and tying your self esteem to that is simply a severe MH issue in the making.

Even taking gender out of the equation, I’m sure some of us would like to be seen as posher/less posh/thinner/taller/stronger/more physically attractive/less physically attractive.

Part of growing up is making your peace with your own body and limitations and realising there isn’t some mysterious privileged “other” group that possesses happiness because they have the physical attributes you yourself covet like a drug.

And realising there’s more to life than obsessing over your physical attributes and keeping good health is the main goal.

My social experience has been that it’s like compulsive behaviour or an addiction with the AGP side of trans - constantly needing the narcissistic “high” of dressing up and being perceived a particular way or being validated or being “checked out”.

Transsexualism is not quite the same prospect as modern trangenderism.

Yes I see that.

Obviously we’re all the sum of our life experiences. But just because you have had depression, or heart disease or herpes or ‘condition x’ doesn’t mean it has to define your entire being or that you have to talk about it in every situation, whether it’s obvious to others or not

But then you don't try to eradicate all mention of it, either.

There is a contradiction, though, in suggesting that one's whole being is defined by feeling that you are the opposite sex, to the extent that you must take hormones, or have surgery on your healthy, normal body to affirm this; but then suggesting that it is not that defining of one's entire being.

The problem is Field, as we all know, that in certain situations we do need to be defined. We rarely need to be defined by what illnesses we have suffered but we do regularly need to be defined by sex.

The trans movement needs to start taking pride in being trans. Self-esteem and self-respect goes a long way. They need to say we are not men or women, but transwomen and transmen.

I can understand why people may not 2ant to be broadcasting very personal information about themselves.

I have an, at times, hidden disability. I absolutely hate being in a position where I have to tell people or explain my illness to strangers. I'm sick to death of customers where I work asking me what's wrong with me. So, I can understand in some way why people don't want to have to declare that they are trans.

You can’t control how people perceive you.
You can take steps, sometimes quite extreme, to alter aspects of physical sex that can change how most people perceive you.

Trying to control that and tying your self esteem to that is simply a severe MH issue in the making.

It might be better than living with extreme gender dysphoria.

Even taking gender out of the equation, I’m sure some of us would like to be seen as posher/less posh/thinner/taller/stronger/more physically attractive/less physically attractive.

I think sex is more fundamental than those relatively superficial things.

Part of growing up is making your peace with your own body and limitations and realising there isn’t some mysterious privileged “other” group that possesses happiness because they have the physical attributes you yourself covet like a drug.

And realising there’s more to life than obsessing over your physical attributes and keeping good health is the main goal.

My social experience has been that it’s like compulsive behaviour or an addiction with the AGP side of trans - constantly needing the narcissistic “high” of dressing up and being perceived a particular way or being validated or being “checked out”.

I don’t disagree with most of what you say. Good advice for anyone.

fields

I think you’re making a straw man argument and obsessing over getting in your subtle claims that transpeople actually look like the sex they aspire to present as.

Are you trying to convince us or yourself?

Most transpeople look like transpeople. They certainly aren’t “expected to reveal” they are trans because others see they are trans.

There’s nothing wrong with that. In the fringes of my social circle there is a a winner of a trans beauty competition (TW) who has a trans partner (TM).

They both look fine and clearly have (and do) put a lot of effort and money into their appearances.

but the transwoman looks like a fundamental man with massive hands and the transman looks like a woman with a beard.

No one has pulled their pants down or demanded the info or located deadnames (or cares) they just aren’t women and men despite their presentation.

It doesn’t mean they should be jeered and sneered at but neither of them passes remotely.

There was a TV show called “there’s something about Miriam” with a small, slightly built, cosmetically enhanced, TW in a dating game whose trans status wasn’t revealed. The men guessed (Incidentally I think that the format was horrible and tacky and exploited a TW with mental health issues).

If you’re being sold the lie that you can easily turn yourself into a glamorous woman who “passes” if you spend £50000 on surgery then you need to take it up with the cranks promoting this ideology, not women.

Hell, I’m sure there’s lots of biological women who wouldn’t mind if there existed a surgeon who could turn them into Meghan Markle or Kate Middleton for £50000! But we know that fundamentally it’s a con.

So, I can understand in some way why people don't want to have to declare that they are trans.

Sure, people don't want to discuss such issues on a daily basis, especially if it's irrelevant. Context is important. But if you want society to recognise and understand your problems and plight, then you need a decent number of individuals to be willing to stand up and declare it and have it formally labelled in some way.

People with ME, autism etc organise days where they come out to promote public awareness of the issues they face. They won't tell random people about their disabilities in their daily life, and in many cases it is hidden, but they might inform their employers, for example. Job applications ask if you have a disability and if you meet the job criteria, they are required by law to invite you for an interview. The same can be done for those who tick the 'trans' box on application forms. GDPR rules can be used to keep personal details private and secure.

I don't like telling people I am autistic, and most of the time I don't. I'm not self absorbed enough to keep talking about it the way some folk go on about their gender identities. I do mention it if it's relevant though and, crucially, I'm not ashamed to be autistic. Some folk might make ignorant comments and hold prejudiced views about autism, but that's on them, not me.
As long as I'm not being discriminated against or harassed, people can think absurd or negative things about autism. My existence isn't denied simple because someone might think I'm 'not autistic enough'.

I think sex is more fundamental than those relatively superficial things.

Fieldofgreycorn What do you think would change about your life if you were the opposite sex? Obviously you can't change sex, but if you changed your appearance using hormones and surgery, like some trans people do, to superficially resemble the opposite sex, what would be different about your life?

People who fixate on being the 'wrong' sex must have some feeling that their life would be fundamentally different if they 'became' the opposite sex, but I've never managed to work out in what way. And they never seem to be able to explain.

It usually does just come down to superficial aspects of their appearance, and how they want to be perceived (which as we've already discussed, can't be controlled by anyone).

Angel has it. In the vast majority of cases the disclosure issue is a red herring, because everyone interacting with the person already knows. The only cases in which disclosure might be relevant is when someone who's not made any efforts to transition, whatever that means these days, yet and so looks like a 100% gender conforming member of their sex but is telling someone that they're trans.

The other person will then assume that this means that they intend to make changes to their appearance and pursue various medical paths, which at this point may not actually be true, unless the change is purely in clothing, and sometimes not even that.

There was a transwoman where I worked and they were the only person in the whole building who wore a skirt and heels. They just looked like a bloke in a skirt. Wore masses of make up to try to cover up the five o'clock shadow. They didn't pass. No need to 'disclose' their trans-ness, it was clear to all.

It isn’t just about stereotypical behaviour. Some people want (need) to be perceived as the opposite physical sex to which they were born.

And this entitles them to what, exactly? Infringement of the rights of a rightfully protected group? That's toddler levels of bullcrap.

Women have rights and needs. And these do not involve being colonised by males who have an (often sexual) urge to mimic them.

Unless of course, and again I point it out to you, you are suggesting that we should institute a theocracy in which the religious belief in a gendered soul should take precedence over everyone else's individual spaces, set asides, civil rights and free speech?

Angel I think many do pass a lot of the time. That’s fine we can disagree, I’m not obsessed.

There was a TV show called “there’s something about Miriam” with a small, slightly built, cosmetically enhanced, TW in a dating game whose trans status wasn’t revealed. The men guessed

They didn’t. They found out when she revealed she had a penis and then they tried to sue the tv company.

www.theguardian.com/media/2003/oct/30/bskyb.broadcasting

Well, I know I've seen trans people IRL who don't pass for a second. If Twitter etc are anything to go by, with those who don't have an anime character, I can spot in a second they are trans despite the picture being tiny and it likely being the most posed and passing picture they have.

Unless of course, and again I point it out to you, you are suggesting that we should institute a theocracy in which the religious belief in a gendered soul should take precedence over everyone else's individual spaces, set asides, civil rights and free speech?

No I don’t think think that.