How should we treat trans people?

[coffeeplease16]

I have been browsing the feminist thread with interest and been reading lots of arguments that accepting trans = encroaching on women’s rights and women’s only spaces. If you yourself believe that you can’t change sex, and being a women = having a vagina - how do you think we should include trans people in our society? I am genuinely interested, and not meaning to be goady. What is the ideal - how can we protect the rights of women without ostracising trans people from our society?

The female born trans people do need specific women's rights, because they may need access to abortion services etc.

I don't follow this.

It's talked about all the time on here about how posters don't want to be forced into refuting what they see with their own eyes.

I would find it impossible to see a male presenting person, with a beard, and think "oh yes. She's a woman".

To me, I would be sharing a space, be that a toilet, hospital ward, changing room, with a man. I wouldn't be reacting as though the person was a woman and I really don't believe that many people would.

Decomposing, yeah, whatever. I know you only consider female born trans people when you think they provide this ridiculous gotcha, despite me just mentioning them in the context of their sex which is the relevant point here, not their identity.

I'll say it again because you seem to find it so confusing, despite it being said over and over on this thread alone. Third spaces. And women retain their rights.

Women can have male patterned baldness! It’s not just for boys... although I suspect a trans woman would get wigs and plugs on the NHS...

They can't. I have androgenic alopecia, aka female pattern baldness, a mix of shitty genetics and hormones. Women do get wigs on NHS, I've never heard of a man getting a wig on the NHS for any kind of alopecia and I expect a trans woman would be treated as a woman here. I have no idea if a trans person who would be genetically predisposed to either of these type of baldness would still get them with cross sex hormones.

So transwomen can't not be women as the word woman is already defined and they do not fit within that definition (and same for transmen and the word men).

I don't understand why people who are trans are so ashamed of being trans (if they were proud they wouldn't need to try and erase their past and try to enforce pronouns etc as it wouldn't matter as it doesn't make you who you are change).

Gender critical people just want safe sex segrated spaces and I think on the whole have no issue with trans people, the people who the trans community feel are supporting them just now still will.

Trans people should be proud to be trans and as long as they are hurting no one and children are left to decide when they are mature enough.

Third space would be the most logical option and would help others in society as well, but sadly this suggestion does not appear to be well received in the trans community.

By debating whether they are women or not is essentially asking are they valid as women.

This whole idea of "validity" is yet another example of a specialist bit of language usage that has been turned on its head and used to promote male rights.

In a group therapeutic context, ground rules are established at the start. One of these will be something about not invalidating others' perspectives.

What this means is, everyone's expected to be mindful of the fact that we all have different experiences and perspectives, and they make sense to us right now, and straight-up calling them bollocks isn't going to help anyone in the group.

It doesn't mean affirming people's opinions or self-beliefs as fact. It doesn't mean nothing can be gently challenged or explored. It's basically just a reminder to not be a narcissistic dick just because someone's interpretation of themself or their experiences doesn't match your own.

Yet another useful idea perverted by the patriarchal mainstream.

There's no such thing as an invalid woman, there's no such thing as a valid woman. It's obfuscatory bollocks.

BeMoreMagdalen

I've always argued for 3rd spaces.

And I don't think TM are a "gotcha" I just think most of the arguments put forward on here can only work if everyone only focuses on TW. If you consider TM then many of the arguments can't work. If you argue that people can't change sex and that no matter what you do to your body you remain the sex you were at conception then it follows that TM, even those who are indistinguishable from natal men, shod be treated as women, which to me, makes no sense.

If for whatever reason you were uncomfortable around men I don't believe that you would see a TM as a woman. But in order for your views on tw to work you have to totally ignore the possibility of TM being in female spaces. I just cannot see how that will work.

To me, I would be sharing a space, be that a toilet, hospital ward, changing room, with a man

Right, one that happens to be giving birth to a baby!

If for whatever reason you were uncomfortable around men I don't believe that you would see a TM as a woman.

Thanks for the invalidation, mate.

Transmen are welcome in female spaces. If they would rather have an additional unisex space available they have my full support in this. They have human rights and women's rights, because they are both human and female.

But in order for your views on tw to work you have to totally ignore the possibility of TM being in female spaces. I just cannot see how that will work.

What about spaces for women and spaces for non-women? Non-women would include men, transwomen (because they're male) and transmen (who are women who don't want to be women).

So women keep their safe spaces away from men, and everyone else can go with the men, because men don't need safe spaces in the same way as women do.

Transmen are welcome in female spaces.

I honestly don't think that many women would feel.like this. How many people would honestly see a bearded person in a women's toilet and think " that's a woman"? Most people would look and think "why is a man in here" and react accordingly.

That's how I would feel. Studies have been talked about on here stating that eg while crime patterns amongst tw follow the trends of natal men, TM commit crimes at similar rates to men.

So.its far more complicated than you make out.

I think the original point was that e.g. abortion services are needed by women, even if they look NGC.
Most of us agree on the third space option and can hammer out the details once we've secured our existing rights.

It really isn’t. It’s been accepted within modern psychiatry for 60 years

Transsexualism, yes......not transgenderism.

The fact you mention psychiatry is pertinent and to the point. This is primarily an issue of mental health.

OldCrone

Personally I don't like the term "non women". I would like to see spaces for "women" and then "unisex" because I think that would help lots of people - including parents with opposite sex children for example.

But that's just my preference. Other people might have reasons to disagree.

Of course, it's not just spaces like toilets is it?

Many people on here argue for female only groups, like book clubs, for example because they say that the presence of a man changes the dynamic. So in these cases TM would be welcome in a women only group, but again, I would see a person that looks like a man as a man so the argument that a man would change the dynamic would apply for.me if it were a TM too.

Clearly the world is changing and we are having to consider situations that we haven't come across before. There is a lot to be worked out.

Someone recorded female at birth who chooses to have their breasts removed because they want a flat chest, takes testosterone to develop a beard and deep voice and is entirely happy and more comfortable with themselves - has an identity as a man

This is a mental health issue. What someone feels or identifies 'as' does not make it real or true in the objective, material world of other people.The vast majority of trans people do not 'pass' anyway. They appear as what they are - because people instinctively register sex.

I would like to see spaces for "women" and then "unisex" because I think that would help lots of people - including parents with opposite sex children for example.

I think that would be a good solution.

So in these cases TM would be welcome in a women only group, but again, I would see a person that looks like a man as a man so the argument that a man would change the dynamic would apply for.me if it were a TM too.

I doubt that a transman would want to join a women-only group, because they would want validation as a man, just like transwomen want to be validated.

it follows that TM, even those who are indistinguishable from natal men,

The higher voice (sorry Buck Angel, but this applies to you), different face shape, chest scars, differing hip-waist-shoulder ratios, and lack of penis all give the game away. Even clothed, three of those things remain visible. There's more subtle clues like limb-torso ratio, hand size, foot size as well. If the clues don't add up, like a person has a beard and a female torso, we look twice, three times, because we spot the inconsistency. Millions of years of evolution have selected for very sophisticated and sensitive sex determination capabilities in women, mainly so that we can detect rape threats.

Transmen make me sad and appalled that a woman has been so abused and misused that she has inflicted such mutilation on herself. I remember cutting my hair off as a child because I wanted to escape girlhood. I considered transition in my early twenties but concluded that as long as I had a vagina, I was at risk from men and I didn't want to spend my life in fear of being outed. I came that close because of sexual assault and misogynist bullying. How much worse must a woman's life be for her to go through with surgery and hormones?

You have to be recorded as one or the other, given the rights of one or the other, treated as one or the other

On the issue of treatment, trans women seem to like to pick and choose which aspects of 'gendered femininity' they want to embody or identify with. Much of what goes with being female is not quite the erotic fantasy that most imagine it to be.

I'm really bothered that you seem stuck on gendered stereotypes of behaviour and 'treatment'. Can you not see what you are saying?

What about spaces for women and spaces for non-women?

I just laughed outloud. Someone should suggest that to the Green Party.

...even those who are indistinguishable from natal men, shod be treated as women, which to me, makes no sense

What do you mean by being "treated as .."? Apart from using single sex services and spaces, what do you mean? It might be helpful to unpack that concept a bit - to see where you are really coming from.

How about people organise their own book clubs however the hell they want?

I’m in a book club which includes a lesbian couple, one of whom is a transman. It’s fine. TM are female. They will always have my solidarity, even if they don’t want it.

To me, I would be sharing a space, be that a toilet, hospital ward, changing room, with a man. I wouldn't be reacting as though the person was a woman

I recently worked with a very lovely TM, complete with beard. Voice, smile, size and proportions, all read very clearly as female from the start, just a very lovely female with a beard, who isn't going to intimidate or distress anyone - not least because they're a very caring person to pretty much everyone around them. They may prefer options other than using single sex spaces and I absolutely support third options available for privacy, dignity, safety, choice. But there's no difficulty in picking up the difference between how they choose to present and their biological sex.

I honestly don't think that many women would feel.like this.

Do you need all three billion or so living human females to say "Actually, yeah, I'm okay with that" before you'll accept it?

So.its far more complicated than you make out.

No, it really isn't.

While the only options are male, female, or disabled, then it's a very simple question: would you rather the trans-identified people in your single-sex spaces were the same sex as you, or the opposite sex to you?

So: transmen are welcome, until we sort out adequate additional mixed-sex provision.

Body modifications don't change your sex. I should know; I've acquired over a dozen of them in a subconscious attempt to reclaim my body from patriarchal demands.

What do you mean by being "treated as

I mean in every sense.

Many posters on this board talk about having different reactions to men than women, how they behave differently when talking to a man than a woman, presence of a man changing the dynamic of a group etc etc.

Yes I support TM with the solutions they want. Some trans/allies only seem to mention TM as a way to try and manipulate how people must think about or treat TW. This has to stop.

While the only options are male, female, or disabled, then it's a very simple question: would you rather the trans-identified people in your single-sex spaces were the same sex as you, or the opposite sex to you?

I honestly don't know what I'd prefer. Someone presenting like Buck Angel I would see them as male. I wouldn't be comfortable getting changed with them present for example.

Someone who doesn't pass so well then maybe I would be more comfortable.

I don't know - the more you consider it the more I think this isn't solvable with just 2 options.