How should we treat trans people?

[coffeeplease16]

I have been browsing the feminist thread with interest and been reading lots of arguments that accepting trans = encroaching on women’s rights and women’s only spaces. If you yourself believe that you can’t change sex, and being a women = having a vagina - how do you think we should include trans people in our society? I am genuinely interested, and not meaning to be goady. What is the ideal - how can we protect the rights of women without ostracising trans people from our society?

You don’t have to. You can go on believing what you want and conceptualising yourself however you like surely?

Yes, but however we do that, we are still female, and still women.

Personal identity centres on many things, and changes and transmutes throughout one's life. There is never really any fixed sense of self - apart from the immutable aspects, such as sex, race, family background.......

Re:surgery same argument could be applied to any “artificial” beauty construct:

-breast size
-whiteness of skin and teeth
-long hair length
-wearing pink
-wearing heels and dresses

None of these are “natural” for women. A lot of women don’t perform these or have these. Women may have had breasts surgically removed for health reasons or not have long hair.

They are still identifiable to everyone else and are women.

If a bloke wants to call himself Lulu and get 30FF implants he’s free to do so and should not be mocked (although I personally would find his appearance incredibly unattractive) but he’s not a woman

I meant that in every day life men are also required not to misgender etc men do it all the time though, and aren't subject to violent rape/death threats, called stupid names like terf/farts or banned from social media.... So they aren't expected to not misgender or call a man a man etc anywhere close to as much.

Personally I don’t believe that someone who is more comfortable with breasts and a surgically fashioned vulva can be said to be a man. It doesn’t fit my definition of ‘man’
What's the problem with calling them a transsexual? That's what they are. A male transsexual. Completely different, in fact virtually incomparable to a woman.

But these days there is more than one way to be a woman

Complete and utter claptrap.

These days, as throughout human history, there is only one way to be a woman. That is to be determined female at conception and be fortunate enough to achieve the state of adulthood.

This is the only thing I, and every other woman, share in common. We do not share it with anybody determined male at conception, though I am willing to give the honorific 'woman' to males born with ambiguous genitalia out of compassion for their complex and often distressing medical conditions.

I will not give that honorific to any normally chromosomal and developmental man no matter his 'feelings'.

I will not give that honorific to any normally chromosomal and developmental man no matter his 'feelings'.

So you would call a transman, with a beard and male pattern baldness who's had a phalloplasty a woman then?

Probably not to her face, because it would be rude, but yeah, Decomposing, I would. And if necessary I'd point out that she's female.

I can't help feeling all this would be somewhat less of an issue if men could stop 'misgendering' boys and men who don't meet their masculinity-expectations, by calling them girls.

It is a fairly modern invention that arose out of Queer Theory in the 1980s/90s.

It really isn’t. It’s been accepted within modern psychiatry for 60 years.

I can't help feeling all this would be somewhat less of an issue if men could stop 'misgendering' boys and men who don't meet their masculinity-expectations, by calling them girls.

In what way is this just a problem about men though?

Any discussion on here acts as though there are only TW. If men calling less masculine boys "girls" is the problem what is the reason for transmen?

Probably not to her face, because it would be rude, but yeah, Decomposing, I would. And if necessary I'd point out that she's female.

Really? Why would you do that though?

The problem seems to be with your definitions of what 'a man' is like, or what a man must think, feel etc.

Someone recorded female at birth who chooses to have their breasts removed because they want a flat chest, takes testosterone to develop a beard and deep voice and is entirely happy and more comfortable with themselves - has an identity as a man.

That person has a male gender identity and they will be considered a man by most people.

Gender identity is a new concept to a lot of us. I'd never heard of it until about 5 years ago, maybe even less than that. It may have been used in some specialist areas before that, but it's not something that most people would have heard of until very recently.

I’m never sure what anyone is trying to prove by winning these kind of arguments.

Like pps said, the trans community consists of individuals who should socially be treated with as much respect as any other.

Trans spaces and social areas where you can support each other sounds a worthy area to campaign for. But this is the trans communities job, not womens.

Expecting and forcing women to be your personal therapists and campaigners and support workers isn’t on. People don’t take well to being blackmailed.

Forcing a few women into calling you “she” isn’t going to solve anything.

Plus, this mythical “female solidarity and community and spirit ” which you think you are being denied access to? It doesn’t fucking exist.

We don’t all have cosy sleepover parties in pink pyjamas and get special privileges for being “girly girls”. You’re thinking of Clueless or Gilmore Girls or the life of a drag queen.

I’m fairly physically conventionally attractive and I’ve received nothing but negative attention and hassle and bullying from men and women for it.

I certainly don’t walk around “feeling comfortable with my lovely breasts and vulva” but I can’t just imagine my way out of them. Oh, and that doesn’t make me a man.

What's the problem with calling them a transsexual?

They may be transsexual. But in law you are either a man or a woman. You have to be recorded as one or the other, given the rights of one or the other, treated as one or the other.

Gender identity is crap isn't...

It's no different to "stereotype" is it?

If we as a society remove the sex stereotypes, there would be no gender identity.

It's based on crap, boy things and girl things aren't real.

But in law you are either a man or a woman.

Yes, and in my opinion it was lunacy to make a law that said that people could switch from their correct biological category to the other one.

given the rights of one or the other, treated as one or the other

Human rights are universal.

By debating whether they are women or not is essentially asking are they valid as women.

I don't debate this. There's no need.

So you would call a transman, with a beard and male pattern baldness who's had a phalloplasty a woman then

A transman would not have male pattern baldness

A transman would not have male pattern baldness

I think testosterone can induce this.

OldCrone maybe not. Also I’m not claiming that gender identity should always outweigh biological sex.

StopThePlanet, has made the most thoughtful and well written post.
Of all the words and strong feelings, this is one that should be listened to.
X

Women can have male patterned baldness! It’s not just for boys... although I suspect a trans woman would get wigs and plugs on the NHS...

I think testosterone can induce this

Baldness may be but not male pattern baldness.

Gender id should never outweigh bio sex, because the reason we separate by sex are because of sex, not gender id. Trans people deserve human rights, the same as any other human.

The male-born trans people do not need specific women's rights. Because they are not of the female sex, so they have no need for them. The female born trans people do need specific women's rights, because they may need access to abortion services etc.

I'd say "Fucked if we're letting anyone recondition us back into meek compliance" but the very first word of that sentence says it all, doesn't it?

Succinctly