Sheffield strip club keeps licence despite opposition by feminist coalition

[stumbledin]

From the way the Guardian reports it (but does anyone think their reporting is unbiased) the undercover filming that campaigners organised has worked against them.

I think the licence will be reviewer again in a year. Have a horrible feeling that if it hadn't been "feminists" campaigning but "local" people the council would have acted differently. The patriarchy likes to be seen to slapping down uppity women.

They didn't even value the opinion of the local Rape Crisis Centre which works nearby.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/17/sheffield-strip-club-keeps-licence-despite-opposition-by-feminist-coalition

Because it was done without the consent of the women being filmed- surely this is really basic stuff?!

I am still wondering how you would expect people to evidence regulatory failure.

How has this been evidenced in other clubs you have worked in, in the past? Or how has this been evidenced before, that you know of?

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly

Ah I see, thanks for the heads up. So because I’ve tried to contribute to a debate that centres on an industry I used to work in for almost a decade I ago, bringing my own lived experience to the conversation I should put up with the responses I’ve had here from women telling what I should and should think and feel because it’s a ‘feminism board’ - quite the contraction there but what do I know 🤷🏼‍♀️

I haven’t given my opinions on the industry, just my experiences of policy and regulation etc. My main objection was to the non consensual and unregulated filming of women in states of undress but seemingly a feminist board isn’t the place to argue that maybe that’s not a good thing. Who knew.

Because it was done without the consent of the women being filmed- surely this is really basic stuff?!

You seem to be saying that you cannot provide evidence of breaches of safeguarding or licence unless you rely on the open cooperation of women who are either being coerced or are complicit?

As pointed out to you previously Kate, those videos didn't end up on porn hub. They were presented as evidence of regulatory failure

do you object to workers being filmed at a Sports Direct warehouse without their knowledge to provide evidence of the same thing

they're both just cases of people being filmed at work, no?

I watched this on the news with my 19 year old dd. She was incredulous that working in a strip club is being portrayed as an empowering feminist thing to do.

Someone is pulling the strings here and it sure as hell won't be a woman.

telling [me] what I should and should think and feel

and no-one is telling you what you should think and feel Kate.. they're disagreeing with you. this is quite different

TheAlternativeTentacle

I am still wondering how you would expect people to evidence regulatory failure.

I’ve answered this a couple of threads up. Most lap dancing clubs operating on a basis of self regulation alongside inspections and policies provided by the Local Authorities in which they work.

do you object to workers being filmed at a Sports Direct warehouse without their knowledge to provide evidence of the same thing

That isn't the same though as they won't have been naked/undressed being filmed without their consent.

You seem to be saying that you cannot provide evidence of breaches of safeguarding or licence unless you rely on the open cooperation of women who are either being coerced or are complicit?

Actually the framing seemed to be that if there were breaches of regs going on then they were the responsibility/fault of the individual women. Which is certainly an illuminating perspective.

Most lap dancing clubs operating on a basis of self regulation alongside inspections and policies provided by the Local Authorities in which they work

which clearly weren't working in the case of this club. seems reasonable that an alternative approach was taken by those being affected by it

She also doesn't buy into the idea that sex work is real work. The idea of her little sisters ever using sex to make money disgusts her - the girls themselves don't disgust her, but the patriarchy that tells us that of course we all have to be ok with it does.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly

So you think being filmed naked and semi naked is exactly the same as being filmed with your clothes on?

Also, how do we know where the footage is? How well were the private investigators themselves investigated before they were tasked with this? What policies and governance were put in place with regards to the footage and how would this be managed? What sort of penalties can be applied by the group in question if anyone did do anything nefarious with the footage obtained? My guess would be non, as they are not operating within a legal framework for such activities

I am still wondering how you would expect people to evidence regulatory failure
Kate answered this upthread here in case you missed it as she had to post again
Most of the clubs I’ve worked in have policies which deal with this, including the use of cameras which have a number of very strict policies governing their use and the subsequent use of any footage they take. These policies were made explicitly clear and I signed a consent form to show I understood and most importantly consented to how they were used. Women in breach of licence regulations were subsequently either given warnings or asked to leave depending on the severity of the breach. As was the case in Sheffield

TheProdigalKittensReturn

Actually the framing seemed to be that if there were breaches of regs going on then they were the responsibility/fault of the individual women. Which is certainly an illuminating perspective

These women will have signed contracts to say that they understand and agree to abide by the rules. If they then breach these then yes they would be at fault. Just the same as if I do something that contravenes the acceptable behaviour I agreed to operate within in my current (non sex industry) work place, the onus of blame for this would be on me unless I had evidence otherwise.

Most lap dancing clubs operating on a basis of self regulation

Phew. That's ok then.

I think that trying to paint the undercover filming as evidence of perversion because the women breaking the rules were undressed, while at the same time claiming that sex work is just work is contradictory.
All industries are regulated.

Other industries dont contribute to women being harassed on the street outside.

Thanks @RosesAndRaindrops

So you think being filmed naked and semi naked is exactly the same as being filmed with your clothes on?

kate, so you think working naked and semi naked is exactly the same as working with your clothes on?

Is it possible that work that requires you to be naked or semi naked impacts the privacy and dignity of the workers doing it?

then why would workers chose to do such work?

@Datun I clearly said self regulation alongside regular inspections by local authorities who enforce licensing arrangements and guidelines the clubs must operate within

further, is it possible that people who chose to do 'work' which compromises their privacy and dignity may not be making that decision freely?

Is it possible that doing work which compromises their privacy and dignity may affect the mental well being of the workers?

Maybe we should be doing something to protect those workers? that work doesn't sound like a very healthy thing to be doing with your life to me.

Ah, so we're to have absolute trust in the integrity of the employers then. Again, illuminating.

KatesMott

Self-regulation isn't worth the paper it's written on, when it relies on testimony from women who are either being coerced, or are complicit in the objectification of themselves in order to earn money.

Or were you suggesting that the club owners would self regulate?

These women will have signed contracts to say that they understand and agree to abide by the rules.

"She read statements from former dancers, including some who had worked at Sheffield’s Spearmint Rhino, complaining of frequent sexual harassment and assault."

If you're looking at a strip club where breaches have been highlighted, and are blaming the women, there is something wrong with you.

The entire premise of a club where men can legally pay to watch women disrobe is based on a power dynamic that can only exist in a patriarchy.

I think that trying to paint the undercover filming as evidence of perversion because the women breaking the rules were undressed, while at the same time claiming that sex work is just work is contradictory.
All industries are regulated

This.

Ah, so we're to have absolute trust in the integrity of the employers then. Again, illuminating

Mmmm. It’s very clear who Kate thinks should be in charge

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly

kate, so you think working naked and semi naked is exactly the same as working with your clothes on?

No, I’m saying I think it’s inherently different which you know. I chose to work in an industry that meant I worked in little or no clothing. I didn’t chose to give up any dignity or respect in doing so, therefore I worked in clubs that afforded me the safest environment they could to allow me to do this. People coming in off the streets filming women undressed without their consent, in full contention of their right to privacy and dignity, in an environment they have already undertaken their own internal risk assessment on and believe to be ‘safe’ is wrong. Surely we can all agree with this? Or do you think because women chose to strip they become ‘fair game’ and should have no rights over what they do or don’t consent to because they chose to work naked or semi naked?