Sheffield strip club keeps licence despite opposition by feminist coalition

[stumbledin]

From the way the Guardian reports it (but does anyone think their reporting is unbiased) the undercover filming that campaigners organised has worked against them.

I think the licence will be reviewer again in a year. Have a horrible feeling that if it hadn't been "feminists" campaigning but "local" people the council would have acted differently. The patriarchy likes to be seen to slapping down uppity women.

They didn't even value the opinion of the local Rape Crisis Centre which works nearby.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/17/sheffield-strip-club-keeps-licence-despite-opposition-by-feminist-coalition

So how would you highlight breaches of regulations?

Being naked is a uniform. They were filmed in their uniform.

I can confirm that it's not shame or fear that's preventing me from hiring young men to wiggle their bums in my face, it's lack of desire to engage in that kind of power dynamic, which I would find deeply unsexy.

I did put "etc".
But then that comes back to why do men find it sexy to have women wiggle their bums in their face but women don't find it sexy to have men wiggle their bums in their face?

I think Kate would very much prefer if we didn't talk about power dynamics.

Kate, I'm not sure you're looking at this in any way that could be considered objective. The people gathering evidence of the breaches of safeguarding and regulation, were not, in any way, under the impression that the women concerned were 'fair game'.

It's the opposite of that. The complete opposite.

That's why they were doing it.

It's extraordinary how you can view the desire to end the objectification of women, to include an opinion of them as fair game.

Truly.

It reminds me a bit of a current effort on Tumblr to reframe the discussion about trans "lesbians" and the lesbians who don't want to have sex with them as being an oppressive attempt to prevent lesbians from accessing the cock they desperately want but are being shamed out of pursuing by a transphobic society.

Patterns are interesting things.

I chose to work in an industry that meant I worked in little or no clothing. I didn’t chose to give up any dignity or respect in doing so

I'm not trying to be rude here, but that's not how dignity and respect work kate

Do you really think the men at the clubs you worked at respected you? Did you feel dignified being naked or partially dressed in a room where almost everyone else was fully dressed?
Did you feel safe at all times? The women working in that club evidently didn't

I find it weird that your key objection, the thing you've gone on and on about, is the workers being filmed. No concern about their lack of safety? about the impact the presence of the club had on other people in the area?

Most lap dancing clubs operating on a basis of self regulation alongside inspections and policies provided by the Local Authorities in which they work.

No, that is not what I asked. This is about gathering evidence of non-compliance.

So when they aren't complying, how have they gathered evidence to show this, in other clubs that you have worked at, or know about?

I didn’t chose to give up any dignity or respect in doing so, therefore I worked in clubs that afforded me the safest environment they could to allow me to do this.

I think this is an important point - so you say you fully consent to dancing in the environment, you are happy to do so, and enjoy doing it?
So if that's the case, how can people not see that it inherently changes to no consent if people take it upon themselves to secretly film your undressed body?
As you say, Women in breach of licence regulations were subsequently either given warnings or asked to leave depending on the severity of the breach. As was the case in Sheffield
It seems it was already the case that if you are caught breaching license regulations or rules you're dismissed.
Plenty of women there will have managed not to break the rules at all I'm imagining?

If the industry refuses to self regulate, rules are broken, the culture changes and boundaries gradually moved. This is not safe for the workforce.
Claims that the people investigating are in the wrong make this industry in some way above the law, different from any other industry.

Self regulation is done alongside local licensing regulation and close working with other organisations such as the police. Lap dancing clubs employ a huge range of women and of course not everyone’s experience will match mine. I’m trying to give examples of my experience and cannot and should not speak for others. I feel incredibly sorry for any women who’ve been subjected to harassment or assault in a club environment, thankfully this is not something I have experience of. All I’ve tried to do on this thread is give an insider view from my own observations but I’ve been piled on and shouted down as a result. It’s a shame there cannot be more in the way of nuanced debate here, which can at least attempt some respect for opinions which differ.

I do firmly believe that the filming of naked women without their consent under any circumstances is abhorrent and I will not be swayed from that.

Self regulation clearly doesn't work, when it's in your interests to break the rules.

It's like MPs voting on their own expenses.

Their barrister, Julian Norman, argued that last year’s licensing committee had said there was no evidence the club had breached its conditions, and this year, they had been given the evidence.

Kate, self-regulation and local authority inspections were useless.

So how would you have uncovered the breaches? You personally.

All I’ve tried to do on this thread is give an insider view from my own observations but I’ve been piled on and shouted down as a result.

Kate I'm not shouting you down, I am actually asking for your opinion/experience.

But if you haven't got any experience of how evidence has been gathered, then it's ok to say so. Maybe if you haven't got experience you have always worked in completely safe, legal establishments. And that's great. But what about those that aren't? Have you got ideas of how evidence could be gathered to help them?

Kate answered this upthread here in case you missed it as she had to post again

Most of the clubs I’ve worked in have policies which deal with this, including the use of cameras which have a number of very strict policies governing their use and the subsequent use of any footage they take. These policies were made explicitly clear and I signed a consent form to show I understood and most importantly consented to how they were used. Women in breach of licence regulations were subsequently either given warnings or asked to leave depending on the severity of the breach. As was the case in Sheffield

As PPs have said, no, she didn't.

It was common knowledge about this club that its licence was regularly breached, as were its own policies. It was also common knowledge that the regulatory framework had failed to deal with the breaches. The only reason that the club eventually acted - and even then, only in the exposed individual cases not in any structural way - was because whistleblowers exposed both the club's and regulator's failures in a secret shopper mission.

What Kate is proposing is a wild west of an unenforceable regulatory framework - thus with no ability to address the illegal prostitution, exploitation of women and people trafficking that plagues this industry.

But y'know: Kate enjoyed herself so who gives a fuck, eh?

This is about gathering evidence of non-compliance

Who gets to do that though? Self appointed morality police?
How do you know where your pics end up if anyone could just take them?
You can't just go round taking naked pics of people without their consent.
You just don't.

I do firmly believe that the filming of naked women without their consent under any circumstances is abhorrent and I will not be swayed from that

Same
That this is the minority viewpoint and MRA shill bot etc etc is being wheeled out on the FWR board is actually astonishing.

Who gets to do that though?

If the regulator fails, whistleblowers.

Do you object to whistleblowers in every area, Roses? Or just the ones where women may be exploited or trafficked?

MRA shill bot

Awww. Did you miss the obvious astroturf? Stings a bit?

I appreciate that Kate has been dealing with a few of us, and I do appreciate her engaging.

I'd just like to go back to this point, regarding working naked being the same as working fully clothed:

No, I’m saying I think it’s inherently different which you know.

what Kate doesn't explain is why it's inherently different? if sex work is just work, then why is working with your clothes off inherently different to working with them on?

If the regulator fails, whistleblowers

Who's regulating the self appointed "whistleblowers" though?
They could be anybody.
If I decided to go undercover tomorrow and film them, how am I not in the wrong?
I could do anything with those images if I was that way inclined.

How do you know where your naked image is stored, or what or where it could be used?

TheAlternativeTentacle

I’ve provided evidence of how the clubs I worked in gathered evidence. Also, Clubs would be fined and even temporarily or permanently closed down if they were in breach of their licenses so it was not in their best interests to let licensing breaches happen. However, trying to regulate a large number of women presents many difficulties and as such the policies and regulations in place were not infallible and yes as evidenced breaches can and do happen.

Inspections were regular and randomly carried out in a way that complied with policy, guidelines and which all dancers had consented to. This was not the case in Sheffield with the undercover PI’s. This is what I’m objecting too. I’m not disputing that licensing breaches happen nor that strict regulation is not needed. I am however fundamentally opposed to the privacy and dignity of the women working there to be compromised in such a manner by an external group acting under no legal protection or guidance.

LangCleg

But y'know: Kate enjoyed herself so who gives a fuck, eh?

Awful, never once have I said I enjoyed it so fuck everything else. I’ve tried to answer from my perspective and experiences but that’s not good enough for most here clearly and you’d rather put untrue words in my mouth than have a respectful debate

I’ve tried to answer from my perspective and experiences but that’s not good enough for most here clearly and you’d rather put untrue words in my mouth than have a respectful debate

Par for the course on here , you're not womanning right didn't you know?

What is the difference between taking pics within the Sports Direct warehouse to expose bad employment practices and taking pics within a strip club to expose bad employment practices?

Answer: that the employees in the latter are naked.

But if "sex work is work" this should be entirely irrelevant.

It clearly isn't, precisely because the claim that sex work is work is false.

There are some principles - bodily autonomy, the right to privacy while naked - which no amount of money changing hands should be able to vitiate.

Advocates for the paid, industrial scale sexual abuse of women want it both ways. Man pays to get sexually aroused by looking at woman paid to be naked in her "workplace" = fine because privacy waived"voluntarily" using financial coercion. Whistle blower takes photos of this taking place to expose dodgy employment practices (touching when license conditions say this isn't allowed) apparently not fine because privacy violated.

Can our slew of new visitors and pompom waving lib fems not see the contradiction here?

Awful, never once have I said I enjoyed it so fuck everything else.

But you support unenforceable "regulation" in an industry vulnerable to exploitation and people trafficking on the basis your individual experience was positive.

If you don't like that articulated bluntly, I suggest some reflection is in order.

LangCleg

Where have I supported unenforceable "regulation" ?! I’ve merely stated some of the many different layers of regulation which were in place when I worked in the industry. I also said that these policies and regulations were not infallible. I don’t think I know of any industry or workplace with regulations or policies which are never at times breached or disregarded.

Also, where did I state my experience was positive? I’ve given an overview of industry standards as I have seen them, I’ve tried not to put personal opinion on the job I did to the forefront of what I’ve said, I’ve just acknowledged that I haven’t experienced any harassment or abuse but was clear that that’s my working experience and I’m not trying to speak for or negate the experiences of those that have.

For the final time my primary objection is to women being illegally filmed in a state of undress without their consent by a group with no legal jurisdiction to do so. If you do think that that is acceptable and doesn’t open up a host of worrying issues then might I suggest that some reflection is in order for you too