"Girls must bow to trans rights in new rules for schools"

[Igneococcus]

In the Times:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/girls-must-bow-to-trans-rights-in-new-rules-for-schools-xxs8t5mn5?shareToken=3bbd28acf03ed3d2916e912216677322

If who you are is a boy who likes feminine things then I agree that you should be free to explore that. But not in the girls changing room, which a. you don't actually need access to in order to explore an interest in feminine things, unless "feminine things" is taken to mean the bodies of your female classmates and b. is for girls, because long experience has shown that they need spaces free from boys in order to protect both their safety and their privacy.

If teachers retain enough common sense to protect Emily who wishes to be known as Ethan by not accommodating her wish to change with the boys because as much as they pretend otherwise they know that would put Emily/Ethan in danger then that's actually a good thing, but what about all the other girls?

I remember a story of a US school with this policy where one girl protested, and so got her private changing room (the janitors cupboard or similar hmm ) and within a week or so, one by one, all the girls made the same request

I remember a TRA poster on Reddit's law subreddit who first wanted to know if they (singular) could demand access to girls' changing rooms. They were succesful and gained access. After a few days they were back, this time asking if there's a law that would force the girls to use the changing room and change with them, as everyone had started chaging somewhere else...

It's easily solved (and helps others too) by having a unisex disabled accessible toilet in every school (multiple in large schools). All public places over a certain size should also have a unisex toilet (again usually the disabled toilet) small cafes tend to have a single toilet anyway so might as well be two unisex self contained than a male and a female anyway.

Leisure centres could easily have unisex areas, it's helpful for families too because boys over a certain age mustn't go into female changing rooms but mums rightly worry about them, my local swimming pool has two fully accessible unisex changing cabins, works for all

Prodigal, but why would teachers protect Emily (who identifies as Ethan) from going into the boys' changing room?

And yet simultaneously facilitate Alfie (who identifies as Amy) going into the girls' changing room?

Why do they need to protect Emily?

And why are they facilitating Alfie?

Why are they treating the two students differently?

And what are the consequences for other pupils?

Basic questions that nobody seems to want to answer.

You really think any trans rights org is going to accept "trans kids change in the disabled toilets"?

asking if there's a law that would force the girls to use the changing room and change with them

I'm sure an attempt at creating a law like this is coming in some of the more woke areas.

@stucknoue
Disabled people don’t wish to move over either. The argument you have used always comes up on these threads. Trans people don’t need to use accessible toilets

Because they don't give a shit about girls, in general, but kind of maybe a tiny bit give a shit about the girls who identify as trans, if only because those particular kids have people lobbying for them.

They're refusing to answer the very basic and logical questions because they know that "who gives a shit about the girls?" is a bit too blunt to play well with parents/the general public.

I'm sure an attempt at creating a law like this is coming in some of the more woke areas.

Yes, it could be framed as creating a hostile environment. Someone really needs to sue on the grounds of sexual harassment/creating a hostile environment for women and girls.

Let’s make a list of the things that males do in order to see unaware women/girls with their clothes off/using loos.

Before hidden cameras

Drill holes in walls and ceilings
Binoculars
Hide in cupboards/cubicles
Find places to view through windows

Then tiny cameras appeared and they get placed in female toilets and changing rooms, but the old school versions of voyeuristic behaviours still happen.

It used to take a lot of effort to be able to view unwilling and unwitting females in a state of undress.

But no one would ever simply use a sentence to be able to do this now would they?

There was one guy who hid in a septic tank iirc...

Any time someone tried to argue that men wouldn't pretend to be trans just to get into women's spaces because it's too much trouble we need to remind them about septic tank man. Some men will literally wallow in shit for hours, of their own free will, just in the hopes of glimpsing an unwilling woman's vulva.

I’m a teacher and I am horrified. I am also a mum to daughters.

Disabled people don’t wish to move over either. The argument you have used always comes up on these threads. Trans people don’t need to use accessible toilets

If they are truly dysphoric then they may be disabled by this. Though that would mean they have mental health condition that needs treating not affirming...

Many excellent arguments. Waiting for them to all be ignored and cue accusations of 'transphobic bigots'.
Because that's all you TRAs can do. Your whole philosophy is built on sand and crumbles as soon as anyone with half a brain asks a few questions.

Well I’m very confused.

Since schoolchildren can not obtain a GRC, in what way are they included under the gender reassignment protections in the Equality Act?

Wouldn’t they instead be protected against sex discrimination, meaning a male child can’t be treated differently than any other male child?

Which raises a further question: if one or two male children are allowed to change with female children, why is it not sex discrimination against the other male children who aren’t granted such licence?

I think the Times needs to rewrite its headline to “Girls must bow down to boys” to make clear what’s really going on here.

Gender reassignment does not require a GRC

Any time someone tried to argue that men wouldn't pretend to be trans just to get into women's spaces because it's too much trouble we need to remind them about septic tank man. Some men will literally wallow in shit for hours, of their own free will, just in the hopes of glimpsing an unwilling woman's vulva.

The body of a man was found behind the wall of the women’s bathroom in a shopping center in Canada just last year. It couldn’t have been more obvious what he was doing there, and yet people still tied themselves in knots trying to find alternative explanations rather than admitting that he was probably just a pervert trying to spy on and/or set up a camera in the women’s loos.

Best one was the idea that he was actually trying to rob a jewellery store in the mall and just happened to fall out of an air duct and down between the walls of the ladies bathroom. Right... Sure he was...

Men will go to stupid lengths to perv on women in any way they can, allowing them to identify their way in just makes it even easier for them.

Best one was the idea that he was actually trying to rob a jewellery store in the mall and just happened to fall out of an air duct and down between the walls of the ladies bathroom.

Occam's Razor, the idiot's version.

Certain people will go to appalling lengths to deny that a certain section of men will go all-out to perv on women in toilets and changing rooms. But a look at porn channnels (yes I have looked, and yes, it's pretty sickening) shows how predominant this is in some people's fantasies and fetishes.

Women and girls should not be subjected and put at risk of this in order to valdate a tiny section of society suffering issues with gender identity. Sorry you want to fl validate an'all, but women do not exist for this shit - we are human beings with rights also. OUR human rights have not existed for centuries, and are scant and hard-won even now. We're not about to give them up just because some men think they want to be women.

On the Times article I initially misread the EHRC statement as "this document is daft" and was all, wait, that's unusually honest, is their normal PR person out sick today?

Gender reassignment doesn’t require a GRC.

Ahhh. I see.

But what constitutes “gender reassignment” under the law? How is it defined?

Surely there must be a definition: how else is one to know when or whether the legal protection applies or not?

I’d love to see a definition. Given that performing femininity does not mean female, altering your body does not mean female. It’s entirely based on what’s in someone’s head.

Stating “ I am trans/gender fluid/non-binary” and will be accessing women’s spaces is the verbal equivalent of a pig in a poke.

Definition as per the Equality Act. No treatment required

This will be awful for all girls. However, it will be particularly bad for girls from certain religions, most of whom will probably be removed from P.E.