Hey FWR - "We need both sides to live with some compromise "

[pombear]

Warning: This thread will spontaneously combust after 10 posts!

As part of this 'complex subject' a poster started a thread to highlight that a trans activist appeared to have posted a twitter gif that implied they were 'dancing on the grave' of a prominent feminist who sadly died today.

The thread was deleted with this message:

Message from MNHQ: We're sorry to hear some users are not happy with our modding of trans discussions, and our updated Talk Guidelines.
This is a complex subject which is very hard to moderate, and since the two fundamental positions cannot easily be squared, it's likely that both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward.
We realise that this will likely be frustrating to many, but we are convinced that our goal must be to support civil and constructive debate.

Civil and constructive debate?

Women point out destructive and uncivil debate from a trans rights activist,

Women also point out the biological sex of this activist.

Women are deleted and schooled in how they must refer to this destructive and uncivil 'debater.

both sides will have to live with some compromise and even contradiction if they wish to move forward

Women - shut up, compromise, live with the 'contradiction' (in this case, does it mean you must only talk about the person who is shitting all over women's spaces and rights if we use the right pronoun?)

Yes the fact that even fucking Harrop called him on his comments a while back shows how low this monstrous individual will go.

Women on FWR are speaking to you MN - are you listening?

THREAD IS BACK

well done MNHQ

(I realised that could read as patronising, but I promise it's not)

Posting in support. Glad other thread is back (if it still is).

Well said MrsWednesday.
I don't post much for the same reason.

As for that thread and deletion message, telling women to be nice in these circumstances did make me wonder, briefly, whether MNHQ actually condones the bicyclist's comments.
I've reached the conclusion that it's more likely that the thread wasn't read properly. Likely because of pressure on the mod. Friday night, the site with even more goady fuckers and trolls posting than usual, may have led to impulsive deletions. But that deletion message.
I do not agree with an earlier post calling for the mod to be sacked but I do think a senior mod, if there are any left at HQ, should make a statement about this. Most of us on the original 'Spartacus' threads, posted around tgree years ago, tried to warn HQ that only complete capitulation would satisfy the TRAs. Now this. MNHQ apparently supporting someone who has made vile comments about the death of a young woman, telling their user base to be nice and compromise.
No, HQ.

And needless to say if supporting that person is so important to MNHQ then sure HQ, go ahead and ban me. You'd be quite right, under those circumstances the site is not the right place for me.

Now the posts using his correct pronouns need to be reinstated.

Hello everyone - just to let you know we've reinstated the thread now - we made the wrong call with this one.

Thank you YetAnotherBecky.

I’m impressed MNHQ

Well done HQ

How has it got to the point where correctly stating that McKinnon is a man is treated as worse than McKinnon's celebration of a woman's death?

This isn't about complexity or compromise. It's about our ability to state the truth about a very nasty individual who clearly hates women who disagree with him.

Well done MNHQ!!!!

🍾

AnotherBecky That’s the right call, though this feels like a nadir and a watershed in the current modding policy.

Would you have a talk next week when everyone’s back in, about reviewing the policy of modding, the weight you give to external reports and specifically how you deal with ‘offences’ (in all senses of the word) like ‘misgendering’? Not expecting you to answer now but it seems increasingly urgent.

Please note that this is a gentle suggestion intended to be helpful rather than an attack on the mod team. It seems that given the current conversation and previous similar incidents perhaps handing over moderation of this board to individuals who are perhaps less experienced or less familiar with the issues at hand at nights and weekends is not the wisest course of action. If a more senior person is not available perhaps it would be wiser to leave any dramatic decisions such as deleting a thread on which many users are already absolutely furious until such a time as the core team is available to make the call.

As irritating as the deletion message on the previous thread was I'm not saying this to attack, what I'm saying is that if I was in charge of moderating a conversation that's as likely to result in tension as this one I wouldn't drop my junior/less experienced/part time people in at the deep end and hope they'd manage to swim until morning, particularly if I was the person likely to come back to find a mutiny on my hands if the wrong call was made.

(This is me trying to be more Errol)

How has it got to the point where correctly stating that McKinnon is a man is treated as worse than McKinnon's celebration of a woman's death?

This. And I will not post a fawning thankyou to MN for merely undoing a great wrong.

@Spinster

He hates anyone who speaks any form of truth.

@MNHQ Forcing us into silence in this situation is just as bad as the TRAs perpetuating this stuff. You, of course, choose whose side you are on. But don't insult us to claim you are on the side of women when you have clearly shown otherwise.

(This is me trying to be more Errol)

How gritted are your teeth right now, my lovely?!

I will be more blunt: how do you propose that such a crass decision will not be made in the future, MNHQ? Because I, for one, am bloody sick of walking on eggshells.

(This is me NOT trying to be more Errol)

Thank you for listening, MNHQ

Hello @ChattyLion yes, we'll absolutely have a conversation about this next week. @TheProdigalKittensReturn thank you - we do accept that we're not going to get it right every time but we do use these occasions as an opportunity to reflect and improve on how we do things.

And again, being more Lang - this keeps happening. How are you going to stop it happening? Because surely a mass mutiny every few months can't be any more fun for MNHQ than it is for us.

(I'm sure the TRAs are loving every second of it though, and I mean "loving" in the "Biblical" and "themselves" sense.)

Thank you @YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet

Glad to hear it, Lang.

Personally - it may be that the more experienced mods mostly have family commitments and don't want to work family unfriendly hours (I know a lot of women have no choice but I'd rather MN didn't make individual staff members suffer). So the compromise I might be willing to accept is that if a matter arises which the on-duty mod feels they're out of their depth they can do something like what the Night Watch do, and suspend a thread until senior staff can take a look.

(I'm sure the TRAs are loving every second of it though, and I mean "loving" in the "Biblical" and "themselves" sense.)

I mean, how the fuck can anyone have a moderating policy that discourages women like AAK from contributing?!

Lovely to see you back, by the way, kittens! If we got nothing else from this, we got you posting again

Yeah, that would be my suggestion, Errol. No on asking people with families to work the vampire schedule, but yes on tabling decisions that could use their input until they're available.

If it was me in charge I wouldn't let the less experienced peeps anywhere near this board, or AIBU either. Surely there's a less contentious board that could be used for practice with the training wheels on.