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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sam Smith

202 replies

TimeLady · 13/09/2019 07:30

Oh, Sam. It's OK to be a feminine man. Just be patient and wait for the right partner.

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-7458871/Sam-Smith-asks-loved-ones-refer-instead-he.html

This looks like the first steps towards transition to me, and I have a strong sense of foreboding. Sam sounds deeply unhappy.

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LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 14/09/2019 12:07

I’m old too and my big brother and sister were teens in the 70s. Denim flares, long hair, checky shirts, denim waste coats and jackets. Both of them!

Propertyofhood · 14/09/2019 12:19

The sexism of this is really fucking pissing me off actually.

The clear message being sent here is that men can't possibly wear any sort of high heel, or speak out about their emotions, or pose in a 'sexy' way. So if a man (in this case Sam Smith) does want to do these things, then they must not be 'men'. There must be some sort of 'woman' in there as well, meaning that person is not a man, but is in fact 'non-binary'. Because 'men' aren't like that.

Pics from Sam's Instagram.

Sam Smith
Sam Smith
Sam Smith
LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 14/09/2019 12:34

Why are men like this very unfeminist?

Propertyofhood · 14/09/2019 12:36

I would add as well that I don't really blame SS himself. He has probably been told his whole life that he is not a 'real man' because of the way that he is.

It's just a shame that he is now continuing to perpetuate that message himself.

DecomposingComposers · 14/09/2019 12:56

The generally accepted idea in society about what a man should be like has been out of date for a very very long time. I posted a video of my ex on page two, sadly what he says is very true.

This might well be true for some parts of society but I don't agree that it's like it for society as a whole.

I think there's a very narrow view of what it is to be a man - how they look, how they behave and I'm not sure it's acceptable to step out of that.

MyCatsHat · 14/09/2019 12:58

Why are men like this very unfeminist?

I think it's because to be a feminist you have to respect the concept of a woman as an actual human entity and that only women can know what being a woman is like.

You cannot be feminist, a man and at the same time presume to speak for what feeling like a woman involves, or claim to be one. If you have basic respect for women you would respect that you are not one and not insult women by claiming that you are one, or even partly one, just because you like dresses, heels, lipstick or other gender fluff that has nothing to do with actual womanhood. As do, and have, plenty of transexual and transvestite men who recognise that much as they are into "feminine" gender expression that are not women.

MyCatsHat · 14/09/2019 13:01

I mean it's a bit like claiming you are black or partly black because today you feel like rapping, eating some jerk chicken and having a perm. That would be hugely insulting and a failure to respect that that is not the essence what being black is about, and being able to share cultural traditions and looks across different ethnicities doesn't change your ethnicity. It would be racist, and this is sexist.

Goosefoot · 14/09/2019 13:37

I can't be really angry about this to Smith, because my feeling here is that he's a very vulnerable individual who really needs some help, and he's floundering. Those videos of him in his underpants are supposed to be lighthearted but I find them disturbing, they don't look like a healthy person being silly to me, they remind me of people who are on the edge.

It seems like his family doesn't know how to help him and they are all looking for a sort of diagnosis, and they hope this is it.

As for this idea that he wants to be some vision of a strong fab woman, I am not so sure that is it at all. I think he was sort of a gentle boy who found himself in an aggressive super-masculine sex scene and couldn't cope. (And I don't mean masculine as in presenting that way, but the way that sex is treated, which can be something feminine presenting men are involved in as well.) Somehow he interprets that as he must feel like a woman.

Maybe he doesn't know that there are plenty of gay men who have nothing to do with a scene at all.

NotTonightJosepheen · 14/09/2019 13:53

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NotTonightJosepheen · 14/09/2019 13:57

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SimonJT · 14/09/2019 13:58

I think there's a very narrow view of what it is to be a man - how they look, how they behave and I'm not sure it's acceptable to step out of that.

But that shouldn’t be the case, being a man or woman should have no impact on clothes, hobbies etc that a person has does because they have a certain set of genitals.

Lamahaha · 14/09/2019 14:01

I never heard of Sam Smith before. I guess I'm out of the loop, not having a TV and all. So my response to this is "meh". Who cares how another person "identifies", celebrity or not. I'm not going to bend over backwards searching for the right pronoun. I have a personality, not a gender, like every single person on this planet. Why the fuss? Who really cares?

Haworthia · 14/09/2019 14:09

But that shouldn’t be the case, being a man or woman should have no impact on clothes, hobbies etc that a person has does because they have a certain set of genitals.

Are you mansplaining to the Mumsnet Feminism community, @SimonJT ? Grin

SimonJT · 14/09/2019 14:13

@haworthia I don’t know what that means, English isn’t my first language.

JellySlice · 14/09/2019 14:16

Bollocks, anyway, because having a certain set of genitals does have a bearing on clothing. The need - physical need, not fashion 'need' - for bras or jockstraps, for example. Or the fact that there's no point my trying to wear trousers like dh's chinos (well-made, strong, soft cotton, deep pockets, welted seams) because they are designed for narrow hips and short bums. So I end up in the usual rubbish designed for female bodies.

Sex is nothing to do with belief. It is objective reality.

Goosefoot · 14/09/2019 14:17

I really think the damage starts in the home with parents of gender non conforming children. I think that's the start of the hang up. I think all nebulous identity issues start in early childhood and are compounded by wider homophobia in society.

That might be the case sometimes, but I'm not so sure I think it always is what is going on.

I have been wondering if there isn't an effect from putting so much emphasis on kids forming or labelling their identity, particularly (but not exclusively) their sexual identity, at quite a young age, often right at the beginning of puberty or even before that.

In a real way though this idea of identity is just an overlay or construct. What we all are in the end is people, variable, in a particular material circumstances, but with our sense of who we are and even our experience of it changing over time.

If you see yourself as a person first, if that is somehow strongly rooted, than the rest you can cope with. Maybe it's pretty stable and maybe it's not, and you can decide what to do with it in your life too.

If you find you are a gay man and it seems a permanent state of affairs you can decide to go be a drag queen and have sex with dozens of hot pool boys, or become a monk, and you are still rooted in your personhood. Or you can do one and then the other, if that's how it turns out. Or maybe even your sense of your sexuality changes over time. You are still you, though. A big change will be hard, but not self-destroying.

But if you need to know your "identity," something that is always culturally and temporally determined, and that tells you somehow what you need to do or be to have a fulfilled life, that seems very fragile to me.

And all of these young people who are still forming these identities think they are nothing without them, and they don't know what to do or think without an identity to tell them.

NotTonightJosepheen · 14/09/2019 14:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MyCatsHat · 14/09/2019 14:57

I think a lot of this is about the fact that many people, especially young people, suffer from self-loathing, low self-esteem, and/or worry about / dislike of their body (which can all be connected of course). Just as has always been the case, but more so with the way social media can make people feel inadequate and torture themselves over how they look and how happy they are.

People have dealt with or responded to that in many ways, a whole range including adopting feminist/GC views, adopting a counter culture, just suffering and eventually coming to terms with it, dysmorphic illnesses such as anorexia, addictions, depression, therapy, or joining a religion so as to become born-again, or even being drawn into a cult. A lot of these are about gaining a new identity or just trying to escape from the disliked "self" in various ways, some more destructive than others.

Thanks to the association of trans ideology with lesbian/gay/bi rights, as if they're the same kind of thing which they're not, it has become the "woke" thing to do to see trans people as victims whose rights trump others, and to agree that TWAW etc.

The result is that there's now a ready-made option for people suffering from self-loathing and unhappiness with their bodies - which is largely caused by gender stereotypes in the first place - to have a shiny new identity to escape into, deluding themselves that it's the answer to all their pain, and on top of that get loads of attention, being praised and called brave and special by the woke media and twitter and so on. No wonder it's absolutely skyrocketed and the NHS can't cope with it.

stucknoue · 14/09/2019 15:09

I wish "they" and other confused young men could look east to Korea where's it quite the thing to look very feminine as a male pop star, or look to the late 70's early 80's here for that matter. Macho isn't for everyone (just like not all women are feminine. The sooner we embrace a world where we are simply individuals the better, no need to take hormones or have surgery, just be yourself. I would support the end to titles on official documents, I have a name and should not have to declare anything other than it (different reasons). What concerns me is why so many young people are deeply unhappy, yes there were very rare cases of transgender in the past but why so much angst now? Even 20 years ago there was very few cases, it's not just media, drs, psychiatrists etc, the depression and anxiety is real.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 14/09/2019 15:12

I say we call time in all this gender crap. It needs to be thrown into the mists of time. Age of science and all that. Sex all the way. The rest it just window dressing.

Wasn’t he unhappy before because he thought he was fat? Then thought he wasn’t good looking? The was single and wanting a relationship?

Some famous people seem to lunge from one disaster/drama to the next and the tabloids lap it up. We really shouldn’t watch the side show.

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer · 14/09/2019 15:14

propertyofhood

Seriously?

Heels make you more womanly?

My dad had higher heels than that!!

6 ft tall without them and very manly 😀

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 14/09/2019 15:15

Didn’t Prince wear heels too? What about cowboys - heels. Dancers? Wee heels. Me? No heels...

kalinkafoxtrot45 · 14/09/2019 15:18

Sam is trying to make himself more interesting. That I can understand, given that his music is bland and dull beyond compare, but really, couldn’t he think of anything else to do?

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 14/09/2019 15:21

A tattoo would be less painful (for the rest of us).

MyCatsHat · 14/09/2019 15:24

Yes Prince, a straight, male man who wore heels and could dance around in them with amazing skill. Because he liked them and that was the look he did, and he didn't need to bleat on about gender at all.