Seahorse BBC2 now

[Hirsutefirs]

I wonder what the viewing figures are, for stuff like this: www.jeaniefinlay.com/seahorsefilm

I’m not going to watch it, for a start.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

A lesbian giving birth via sperm donation like many others. Just with so much confusion and convolution on their part that enforces everyone around them to run around enabling and facilitating and trying to make sense of their confusion by twisting language in all directions and pretending things for their benefit that aren't true at all, and giving immense amounts of time, attention and servicing to their confusion.

Who benefits from all this? Are you left with the feeling that Freddie is happy and this has all been worth it? And yes, a million times, what about the child who will internalise all this confusion and self rejection and erasure of facts to preserve their parent's fragile sense of self?

[DobbyTheHouseElk]

But is Freddie a lesbian if he is attracted to men?

[OldCrone]

then does anyone check? Is it worth the paper it’s written on if anyone can do whatever they want afterwards?

There is no legal definition of what it is to 'live in the acquired gender'. Any such definitions would be so obviously sexist that they would never make it into law. We do not have exclusively male roles and female roles in society. They only exist in activities associated with sex and reproduction.

So an example of someone who claims to be a man not 'living as a man' would be such a person becoming pregnant and giving birth (e.g. Freddy).

An example of someone who claims to be a woman not 'living as a woman' would be such a person using their penis to rape another person.

[zanahoria]

At the moment having be one where to vent among kindred spirits will do. I saw bits of last night's film and frankly that was enough but to find Mr Seahorse complaining about the health service that has transitioned him then provided him with fertility treatment really takes the biscuit. He won't be happy until someone has given him the moon on a stick.

[Justhadathought]

I hope they don't have a girl

I'm glad that Freddie had a boy. Almost as if the bit of Freddie that identifies as male has been delivered in the form of a child. As long as Freddie doesn't go the route of pretnding that the child is not male, then it might help heal some of the obvious wounds that Freddie feels.

Freddie seems mortified with feeling soft and vulnerable, but as soon as they came off the testosterone this is what started to happen. The testosterone made Freddie feel strong, protected and more invincible.

Such a profoundly positive birthing experience...can only hope that this changes Freddie for the better, and permits them to feel fine with being a mother. The child requires a mother. I am concerned though with the sort of total confusion the child may be subject to - and how the child will cope......not good.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

I believe (please correct if wrong?) that Freddie's partner is also a transman. So they identify as men and identify as being in a gay relationship, but the biological sex of both partners is female. A relationship between two biological women is a lesbian relationship.

The language muddles the facts and concepts up into knots, but the basic facts remain.

[NotBadConsidering]

OldCrone that makes sense of course, clearly having a baby is the one thing you could 100% say is not “living as a man”, but now what? No one seems to care that Freddie committed to living as a man then did the most biologically female thing ever. The panel who approved it must be aware, but is there anything they can do? Clearly the legal argument for the defence would be that “living as a man” now includes having a baby. It makes a mockery of the whole process.

[Justhadathought]

There was a baby to look after, care for, feed, keep clean, keep healthy, etc etc.When you have a baby, you can no longer be self-centred

That is true. There is an inevitable loss of self, and then a re-definition of oneself which is more expansive and embracing, I think, once a woman has children. Most first time parents don't realise the very profound implications of having a child. They assume they will just carry on as before.

Hopefully, this can be the making and healing of Freddie. Let's just hope that this happens before the child is damaged and confused beyond repair.

Taking up testosterone again, though, worries me. This will most likely lead to a loss of the strong bond that Freddie felt on having just given birth.

[Justhadathought]

Seems to me that Freddy has some daddy issues left over from Freddy’s own childhood

Yes, definitely........wanted very much to reconcile with father too...but father was having none of it.

What Freddie really needed was therapy - to reconcile themselves with their conflicted feelings around softness and vulnerability.

[OldCrone]

The panel who approved it must be aware, but is there anything they can do?

No. The law is insane.

Clearly the legal argument for the defence would be that “living as a man” now includes having a baby.

Using that argument, if everything, including biological and reproductive functions, can be done by someone living as either a man or a woman, then there is no such thing as living as a man/woman, or identifying as a man/woman. Transgenderism then ceases to exist.

We can then go back to the old-fashioned method of classifying people into two sexes, based on reproductive function. This, of course, says nothing about what sort of personality anyone has. Sex is still important for reasons of reproduction and healthcare, so it cannot be ignored completely.

[Justhadathought]

And Freddy's obvious disdain for the women. Can't wear anything that might be associated with you lot. Urgh. People might think I'm one of you

I read that scene a bit more sympathetically.......being pregnant and with a group of women/mothers really brought to a head the total alienation that Freddie feels towards their female self. The total dissonance was audible. Freddie is trying, quite desperately, to separate themselves from feeling vulnerable - which is how Freddie associates being female/a woman/a mother.

[SarahTancredi]

Yes, definitely........wanted very much to reconcile with father too...but father was having none of it

See I didnt understand this. But I did feel the email was deliberately emotional.black mail . Very passive aggressive. Had to get the "being trans..." bit in so even if there was a response well it wouldn't be because they spent money they didnt have or were grossly unprepared for , or just to get famous with a documentary or any other reasons a parent might say it was a ridiculous idea. It would be because were trans.

It assumed a hostile reaction and baited fir a hostile reaction before any reaction even happend.

If you were that convinced they would be so.awful then why tell the.

Maybe I'm wrong and I'm.prepared to be told as much but just seemed another way to create their own drama

[Justhadathought]

Freddie wasn't overcome with broodiness, this was a calculated move to get the law changed as Kat said

I think you might well be right. Freddie didn't realise quite what Freddie was getting into, though. This became quite apparent.

[Justhadathought]

But is Freddie a lesbian if he is attracted to men?

I'm not sure that this is the case....CJ was not a natal male. They talked about both having uteruses, at one point. I'm pretty sure?

[OldCrone]

What Freddie really needed was therapy - to reconcile themselves with their conflicted feelings around softness and vulnerability.

I wonder what really happened while Freddy was away at university, very unhappy and hundreds of miles away from home and family (Freddy seems very close to Freddy's mother).

Trans does seem so much like a cult that seeks out vulnerable young people. Has anyone looked at the statistics of how many young people go away to university and suddenly decide they're trans?

[Justhadathought]

No one seems to care that Freddie committed to living as a man then did the most biologically female thing ever. The panel who approved it must be aware, but is there anything they can do?

Yes, there are definitely ethical questions here. How this 'deception' could be played along with by all of the professionals; most especially since it involves a child at the end of it all.

[DobbyTheHouseElk]

I don’t think the relationship with CJ was really explored. I think they both were born female. But didn’t Freddie say they had only slept together once, and that really he was attracted to men.

I felt sad for CJ, but was glad at the end they were still friends.

Assuming that Freddie really wanted a male partner, to accept his female body. That bit I don’t understand, but from the old photos they found it seemed that Freddie had always been attracted to men.

[OldCrone]

I read that scene a bit more sympathetically.......being pregnant and with a group of women/mothers really brought to a head the total alienation that Freddie feels towards their female self. The total dissonance was audible.

Freddy could have been a young mother being looked after and supported by some older women who had lots of useful advice. Freddy has instead chosen a path which means that Freddy cannot bear to be one of them. Freddy looked quite distressed in this scene where the women were all laughing and joking.

Freddy has chosen a very lonely path here. The trans cult sucks in people who don't fit in or who are lonely or unhappy. The trans path means that they will never fit in, because they are rejecting the people who, because of biology, are like them.

Only women understand about pregnancy and giving birth. If you reject womanhood as something you don't want to be a part of because you view women as inferior, women are likely to be less sympathetic towards you.

[Barracker]

The moment at the end where F choked up over their baby gave me hope.
Such a whoomph feeling is so recognisable in almost every mother who has given birth.
And I think, if you genuinely feel that level of awe and devotion to your child, you suddenly dread them repeating your own mistakes.

I have two friends who stopped smoking instantly after I feigned interest in borrowing a cigarette and trying it myself.
Telling them to stop smoking would have been ineffective.
Them facing internal conflict over feeling responsible for another person following their lead, seemed to spur them to stop.

Easier to inflict harm upon yourself than feel responsible for influencing another person to inflict similar harm upon themselves because of your example. At least, if you care about the other person, and have a conscience.

So I can imagine that if Freddie was faced with the idea of h* beautiful baby boy growing up to experience castration and penectomy because of F's example, well then Freddy might have pause for thought.

Beware setting the example that your sex can be rejected if you fail the feelings test.
Your beloved child may believe you.

[SarahTancredi]

Freddy could have been a young mother being looked after and supported by some older women who had lots of useful advice. Freddy has instead chosen a path which means that Freddy cannot bear to be one of them. Freddy looked quite distressed in this scene where the women were all laughing and joking

I think there was a sudden realisation that despite what they had perhaps been lead to believe, regular people like those women saw clothes as just functional and that they could just wear what they liked. They didnt really care.

That's a suggestion trans people are never really properly exploring. That they can wear what they like. No one cares. If maternity trousers fit better go for it.

[DuMondeB]

Might be how the footage was cut, but I got the feeling CJ backed out because CJ/CJs family didn’t really see a non-biologically related child as family.

Perhaps CJ will do pregnancy themselves at some point?

As an aside I thought it hilarious that they both seemed to believe that ‘gay trans men’ have it particularly hard when trying to conceive a baby - yet, if they were in relationships with gay bio men they would have easy access to both sperm and eggs (compared to lesbians who have two sets of eggs or infertile straight couples who have only eggs, only sperm, or in worse case scenarios, neither).

Plus, plenty of women have to make the decision between meds or pregnancy. For some, that’s a truly life threatening choice.

[CoolCarrie]

Well everything I’ve read since i made my comments has certainly given me food for thought.

[Ali1cedowntherabbithole]

This thread has reminded me how much pregnancy & motherhood have changed me.

From no way, am I wearing those big ugly knickers to wow, they look comfy.

From feeling embarrassed at the thought of getting undressed in front of strangers to giving birth and no longer giving a shit who is watching as long as it's over soon.

we all have hangs ups and prejudices that we are forced to confront. And we learn that it's ok to let go of them. I wish Freddie had allowed themselves to do this.

[DuMondeB]

have to say all I can take from this is they are a massive attention seeker .its all about them. All the time. When everyone was having a laugh at the table their face just fell and they went all quiet

I can’t help but think this is all to do with the sense of abandonment caused by the parents break up and Freddy’s subsequent daddy issues.

I was raised by a shit dad and both my sister and I did weird attention seeking stuff. She was perfect in every way and he still ignored her, so I tried being imperfect in every way and he still ignored me.

Luckily we both left that shit behind and grew into adults who didn’t want to put our own babies through similar.

Maybe the baby will inspire Freddy to similar emotional growth? The look of a smitten m**r after a wonderful birth was unmistakable.

Can’t help but think the legal/media attention will exacerbate the selfishness, at least at first. Maybe it will flare up and burn away?

[OvaHere]

I was reading a thread on reddit earlier where a few gay men were discussing transmen in gay spaces. The consensus seemed to be that while they are mostly welcomed into gay spaces (because there's no particular threat to the power dynamic so inclusivity tend to win out). They tend to hang around the fringes then quietly drop out because as the men put it, gay male culture is complex, fast and can be quite brutal - not at all like yaoi slash fiction imaginings that's taken hold in a lot of online spaces. A lot of actual gay men can find it alienating and difficult to navigate when looking for something meaningful so I can't imagine anyone female will fare particularly well.

No idea how much this applies to Freddie or whether they have genuinely attempted to live as a gay man immersed in that culture. It just strikes me that a female idea of living as a gay man is as much fantasy as the male idea of living as a lesbian. I think this is why we see quite a number of same sex trans people in a relationship but identifying it as the opposite of what it is (e.g. two females identifying as a gay male couple).

Seems like extended role play to me perhaps driven by a deep disassociation from expected gender roles based on biological sex. I don't think it necessarily follows that someone like Freddie is a lesbian because they attempt a relationship with another TM. This is why good therapy is needed and not unthinking affirmation.

I really hope Freddie is able to have a good relationship with their son but my biggest concerns would be that the child is at risk from being transed themselves if he so much as looks at a pink toy as a toddler. If they do manage to reach puberty as an average boy child how is Freddie going to deal with a young man who masculinises effortlessly due to puberty and will probably tower above them by age 15/16.

There are so many real issues that need to be asked in documentaries like this rather than the sanitised, unquestioning, sappy music version we get.