Seahorse BBC2 now

[Hirsutefirs]

I wonder what the viewing figures are, for stuff like this: www.jeaniefinlay.com/seahorsefilm

I’m not going to watch it, for a start.

I was reminded about this from last year

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05t66bs

Both consider themselves gay men, I'll watch Seahorse tonight, or at least try to.

Can’t help but think the legal/media attention will exacerbate the selfishness, at least at first. Maybe it will flare up and burn away?

I just didnt get the pre emptimg often falsely of reactions. The total lack of awareness that day to day no ones really gonna care. They seemed to go physically looking for trouble so to.speak. scanning the pack and crossing words out, pulling labels off stuff internet searches etc .

They left work early so no one could question anything. Surely most people would have just said congratulations. The problem arises not with presenting as male and having the baby but with the complete denial of reality. If they were prepared to accept the truth of nature in all this there wouldnt be the problem.

They almost appeared annoyed no one did say anything....

I am GC. I disagree with TRA ideology, but I find it very uncomfortable when individuals who are trying to live their lives are criticised. Attacking the ideology, the TRAs, is one thing but so many people have been let down, or given the wrong info or support, I don’t feel right having a go at every trans person who is given some kind of platform.

I found Freddie to be a likeable person. He transitioned at uni, so, 18/19? after a childhood of non gender conforming. It Is contradictory of course, to have GD and then choose to become pregnant, but humans are rarely consistent. I am very uncomfortable as a GC feminist with the idea of a woman rejecting her sex to transition, but I do get that this society can make it very hard for girls and boys who do not fit in the gender boxes, and I can accept that for some individuals transition appears to be the only route. I worry for the child, but there is nothing to suggest that this child will not be much loved - both by the parent and the grandmother.

I didn’t think Freddie was narcissistic at all. I liked his comment about if men got pregnant, it would be taken so much more seriously, and totally with him on the dog shit being trod all over the house - OMG! After he’d said, don’t tread it through the house! Loved the dog. You don’t see that many wire haired fox terriers about now. Lovely.

Just to add. The one really serious concern, not addressed though, is the poss effect on baby of the mother using testosterone for so many years. I know he came off testosterone when trying to be pregnant but there must be some effect on ovaries, uterus etc. And no one mentioned that at all.

but I find it very uncomfortable when individuals who are trying to live their lives are criticised

As I said before, Freddie is take their case to the High Court to try and change the very understanding of the words “mother” and “father”. Freddie made a documentary with the backing of two of the biggest media organisations in the UK and it was shown on national tv. Freddie is doing the very opposite of just “ trying to live their lives”. Freddie is trying to change what everyone else’s life means legally and doing so very publicly. So I think any comment or criticism is completely fair.

Absolutely notbad we're being gaslit into believing that these attempted legal changes are just 'individuals trying to live their private lives'. Utter bull. Nothing in my private life necessitates legal precedent that will have ramifications for everyone bound by the law.

but I find it very uncomfortable when individuals who are trying to live their lives are criticised

I find it very uncomfortable when individuals who aren't trying to live their lives but rather impose their lives on everyone else using the law are defended.

Freddie is not my responsibility nor should my legal rights be compromised to validate Freddie.

I am more than happy to criticize Freddy, my only regret is that we have only this little space on the internet. It would be great to have a ninety minute film on the BBC.

I believe (please correct if wrong?) that Freddie's partner is also a transman. So they identify as men and identify as being in a gay relationship, but the biological sex of both partners is female. A relationship between two biological women is a lesbian relationship.

My reading is that Freddy has always been attracted to men, dating another transman was more of a compromise or ideological choice, one that doesn't seem to have been particularly passionate or sexual.

I tend to agree with Ova above, trying to live as a gay man is probably pretty difficult for most women.

I ended up more fascinated by the pregnancy journey as their expressed feelings on it all were so similar to mine.

Feeling like I am outside of my own body, like I'm an alien, like I've lost who I am and am instead now just this identity of 'pregnant'. Hating every medical appointment or being observed as pregnant by anyone. Really uncomfortable in group antenatal meetings with other women feeling I can't relate to them at all.

All stemming from my own awful discomfort as a human being really, and deep hatred of myself and my body - not my gender, not hatred of other people or groups.

I've never found another woman in my life who can relate to this. I'd love to have a chat with Freddie about it some time but I guess he won't be interested in hearing it as I'm not trans.

It's very strange because none of the substantive 'changes' this person has actually made in their life is currently prohibited in uk law: having a masculine name, title, a female partner, having a baby, adopting the outward symbols of masculinity, referring to themselves as a dad, all perfectly legal at present. The only thing this law would enable is an intangible fiction to mask a concrete fact. And who stands to benefit from this? Who is pushing for this move behind the scenes? I'd put money on it being men who see mothers as individuals, and motherhood as an institution, as an inconvenient obstacle blocking them from the unfettered abuse of children. I'd put money on these men rubbing their hands together with glee at the idea of a generation of motherless children either through this or through the rise in surrogacy. I think Freddy is just another unwitting pawn in the game.

Yes exactly Ruffle

Strange time for the mother to buy a place in Spain.
I just feel pissed off and angry. But mostly I’m just really offended on so many different levels.

I don't think Freddie is a pawn in the game. He comes across as someone who absolutely reeks of privilege, a Guardian Journalist with mates in the media who make a 90 minute film about about poor little him whingeing about his lot and then he whines on about loss of privacy. Frankly, he makes me sick.

I don’t understand why Freddie didn’t adopt......if their female anatomy makes them feel so uncomfortable they would prefer to take T and present as Male, then why on earth undergo IVF to get pregnant?
Are any specialist Drs going to be monitoring the babies development to check there are no adverse affects of the Mother taking T?

Adopting would not have given Freddie the ability to try and get men considered as birth parents which is what Freddie's goal is.

This has nothing to do with wanting a child. It's political.

My reading is that Freddy has always been attracted to men, dating another transman was more of a compromise or ideological choice

Once you get into validating ideological choice over fact you end up with lesbians (actual biological female homosexuals) being encouraged to make compromises and ideological choices that are actually about forced heterosexuality and denying women the right to exclude penises from their sex life. It's accepting and supporting the falsification of language that muddles this into becoming deeply unethical.

The facts are that whatever Freddie and partner want to identify as, they are in a lesbian relationship.

He didn't take testosterone when trying for or during pg. But there are health risks for biological females taking it, and for biological men taking female hormones.
But I do think that although the body is one sex, the mind can be many different possibilities. The problem is trying to make people the same.
Even if Freddie was pushing his agenda, it's his life that he's pushing. I am a minority because I'm autistic and I want to push that agenda.
I'm glad I live in a society where people can mentally identify as male but use their biological sex organs to have a baby. It's a democracy that is important.
I know this won't go down well here as most of these threads are very anti trans. But I want to explain how I feel.

Journalist with mates in the media who make a 90 minute film

90 minutes is way too long. Half an hour was plenty.

But I do think that although the body is one sex, the mind can be many different possibilities.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you talking about personality? The mind cannot have a different sex from the body because it's part of the body. But your sex shouldn't stop you from having any particular personality type.

I'm glad I live in a society where people can mentally identify as male but use their biological sex organs to have a baby.

I think what you mean is that a woman should be free to have a 'masculine' personality type. I agree. But she can never be male.

"people can mentally identify as male but use their biological sex organs to have a baby. It's a democracy that is important. "

words have meanings, here is the definition of male

"used to refer to men or boys, or the sex that fertilizes eggs, and does not produce babies or eggs itself"

dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/male

Its not anti trans to point this out, nor is it democratic to oppose it

Its simply a belief in science rather the faith based quasi religion of identity politics

I do think that although the body is one sex, the mind can be many different possibilities

So that means that there is a separation between body and some other inner part of self which has been somehow accidentally ended up in the 'wrong' matching body. This is a belief in gendered souls.

I absolutely respect anyone's right to have religious and faith based beliefs, but it's not acceptable to force others to validate and participate in a religion they don't believe in themselves, particularly when this clashes with their own personal faith based position.

May also be of interest: some believe that a soul goes through many incarnations and moves between both male and female bodies depending on its choice and need to progress through each human embodied life. The soul itself is seen as not having a sex (no idea about gender preferences and choices and how those get spiritually manifested in heaven or wherever else you may believe those souls are between incarnations).

I’m afraid I found the narcissism of insisting on re writing the entire narrative around pregnancy and birth completely alienating. Also the declaration that having periods is “emasculating.” I’m truly sorry you fe that way Freddie, it’s really messed up and must be awful, but don’t ask me to accept that view of things as reasonable, or as anything other than the product of a distorted mind.

Some people identify as men one day and as a woman the next, is that gender fluid? Some people don't identify as male or female. But I believe that people can feel male in a female body, and vice versa. There are people who are happy with their genitals and are more masculine/feminine than their gender norms. But there are people who aren't and want to transition. I read a report that a higher than average amount of autistic people are trans than are trans in the neurotypical population. I just don't feel that my womanhood is threatened by trans people. Maybe it's because I'm autistic I see the world in a different way?

I did feel sorry for the little baby who thinks Freddie is his mother, and whose entire existence is being pressed into service of Freddie’s beliefs. I don’t believe Freddie is a wicked person, but they have done a very bad thing here.